An individual on the internet informed me that backwinding the jib is the only efficient way to tack an H16.
Unless the H16 is significantly different that any other boat that I have ever sailed, backwinding actually slows the tack and is not really a technique that is used during competition.
Does anyone have any opinions on this?
Backwinding the jib to tack...opinions
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Posted: Oct 13, 2009 - 08:54 AM
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Posted: Oct 13, 2009 - 09:02 AM
in most cats/ cases you shouldn't release the jib until the main has passed overhead, so even if for just a second.. your still backwinding it a little...
I owned a H16 but never raced it (or on one).
I would think that backwinding is needed in some condition (like big waves) when you need a "little more" to get the bows through the tack... but if its not needed.. it isn't used to much...
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Posted: Oct 13, 2009 - 10:11 AM
I don't have a jib and still manage to tack in waves. It's not always enjoyable, but it is possible.
Quite a few years ago (early 90s) I crewed on a Tornado and we didn't need to backwind. I expect that a 16 foot boat that weighs and has less beam would be easier to tack. Is it something to do with the huge amount of mast rake that the H16 seems to use?
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Posted: Oct 13, 2009 - 10:35 AM
Nope with the H16 its the asymmetric hulls and no centerboards. Basically you have to turn the whole boat around the rudders (actually a point between the rudders and the deepest part of the hulls). The skeg shaped hulls tack a little better and centerboard boats (tornado, nacra 5.5, 5.2, etc) tack the best.
That severe mast rake you can set the H16 up with probably also doesn't help.
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Dave Bonin
1981 Nacra 5.2 "Lucile"
1986 Nacra 5.7 "Belle"
Winnipeg, Manitoba, Canada
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Posted: Oct 13, 2009 - 10:44 AM
Dont forget your question was about "a technique that is used during competition"
Why dont you have/use a jib on an h16? -
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Posted: Oct 13, 2009 - 11:06 AM
I have a Nacra 5.5 Uni.
Actually I asked whether backwinding was the best and only efficient way to tack a H16.
I ask this because I haven't sailed a Hobie 16 and wondered if the H16 was somehow fundamentally different from other boats.
If my understanding of the theory is correct, a H16 should be one of the easier boats to tack (even in wave) due to:
- The 320 lb weight (a good amount for a 16.5 foot boat)
- Low volume hulls
- Relatively narrow beam
- 2up boat provides more momentum.
I know that backwinding will make tacking easier, but it does slow the tack and I am skeptical that it is required to tack a boat of this size. There is the possibility that I am wrong (according to my wife, this happens all the time).
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Posted: Oct 13, 2009 - 11:18 AM
Wolfman: The hull shape may be the reason. I guess I need to try out one of the H16s. I have sailed a uni rig skeg boat and didn't find it hard to tack, but each boat is a little different. -
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Posted: Oct 13, 2009 - 11:24 AM
I looked up the H14. It has a similar hull design to the H16, but does not carry a jib. -
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Posted: Oct 13, 2009 - 12:22 PM
Your 5.5 is much easier to tack than an H16, I also know my 5.2 (with daggerboards) is a freaking DREAM to tack compared to our old H16. The H14s do have the same hull shape as the H16s and are notoriosly tough to tack without a jib. That being said, once you get good at it you can tack an H16 about as well as any other boat. The learning curve is just steeper that's all and smoooooth tacking technique is a must.
Oh and one of the main reasons for the mast rake on an H16 is to keep the hulls from diving in. You will often see the crew on an H16 trapezing almost off the back of the boat just to get the weight back and avoid pitchpoling in higher winds.
edited by: Wolfman, Oct 13, 2009 - 11:24 AM
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Dave Bonin
1981 Nacra 5.2 "Lucile"
1986 Nacra 5.7 "Belle"
Winnipeg, Manitoba, Canada
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Posted: Oct 13, 2009 - 12:47 PM
also critical to get the bows out of the water for tacking -
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Posted: Oct 13, 2009 - 01:52 PM
So what exactly is the advantage that the H16 has that makes it so popular? -
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Posted: Oct 13, 2009 - 01:56 PM
CHEAP and simple!! There are so many out there that you can get a decent one for on the order of $2000, less for a crappy one.
Also there isn't much to rigging it. There are less parts and they are really easy to figure out compared to many other designs.
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Dave Bonin
1981 Nacra 5.2 "Lucile"
1986 Nacra 5.7 "Belle"
Winnipeg, Manitoba, Canada
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Posted: Oct 13, 2009 - 02:44 PM
Aye, tacking my 5.2 is similarly much easier than my P18.
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Rob
OKC
Pile of Nacra parts..
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Posted: Oct 13, 2009 - 03:27 PM
agree with Wolfman about the learning curve! and previous comments-my first full summer with my boat in all conditions showed me the "pivot point" you are tacking around in H16 is the entire assymetric hull, so weight distribution at the right time is crucial-smoooth helm over, I now stay on leeward side thru eye of wind, smoooth wt transfer,and the backing jib definitely helps finish tack
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eddiecat
Nacra 5.0 (destroyed in storm)
Hobie 16 (restored)
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Posted: Oct 13, 2009 - 03:30 PM
Hobie was the first to market... lots of market share because of that..
Hobie 16's are good solid boats in most conditions, from flat and light air to large waves and heavy air. They can easily be reefed (or at least the early models came with reef points) and are relatively easy to sail...
I had one and loved it. I still miss it (esp when i am in my 2nd hour of rigging my beast) -
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Posted: Oct 13, 2009 - 04:11 PM
Those guys on the Interweb don't know nothing!
Now the Hobie 16 IS different to sail than a lot of other beachcats (or should be, others are different from the Hobie 16)
Couple of articles
Roll tacking the Hobie 16
http://www.thebeachcats.com/Article73.html
Hobie 16 tips and tacking at the bottom
http://www.thebeachcats.com/Article111.html
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Damon Linkous
1992 Hobie 18
Memphis, TN
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Posted: Oct 13, 2009 - 04:20 PM
Lernin' more than I ever did in skule!
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Posted: Oct 13, 2009 - 05:11 PM
I'll tell ya, tacking in 20-25 knots winds is difficult no matter what brand and model cat you are on. You tend to pinch to keep from flippin' and the boat just wants to weather vane and drift back when it is blowin' that hard. What is the easiest boat to tack, . . . those with self tacking jibs (and almost all of them have high aspect boards).
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Philip
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Posted: Oct 13, 2009 - 07:36 PM
back-winding the jib basically stops any cat dead in the water as all the speeds gets bled off as the bows go sideways through the water, so it is very slow. but as no special techniques are used, (you basically just pull the rudder from pretty much any heading angle), it is probably the most widely used catamaran tacking technique
however if you've got crew and are racing then you shouldn't have to back-wind the jib, even on a h16. but the helm needs to get the heading, speed and waves all right for the wind and the crew needs to release, pull through and reset the jib at just the right time. can be extra hard with that battened jib on the h16 too
even though my nacra5.2 has big centerboards to tack around, as i usually sail solo i've got to much to do already without timing the jib release and reset. the older nacras have big overlapping jibs too which are harder to get around the mast cleanly than the smaller, more modern blade jibs
i think of the h16 as the vw, mini or 911 porsche of the sailing world, it is an old, wildly successful design that somehow really caught people's imagination but the engineering involved was such a compromise in so many ways that it's basic design ended up being an evolutionary dead end
like the 911, the h16 is one of the easiest performance boats to sail but one of the hardest to sail really well. which makes it incredibly rewarding too
body positioning is very important on the h16 and a fast h16crew is constantly moving forward and back, in and out to keep the boat in it's constantly moving sweet spot
the h14 didn't have a jib for simplicity/cost reasons, neither does the wave, but for both boats the factory provides expensive jib upgrades as the continual complaint from owners is that the damn things keep getting stuck into wind
edited by: erice, Oct 13, 2009 - 06:41 PM -
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Posted: Oct 13, 2009 - 10:10 PM
The jib battens on the H-16 have a tendency to get stuck on the mast/halyard as you are coming about, a pain when you are solo. I felt backwinding helped me get the jib past the sticking point.
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