Another lesson learned: When rudders kick up you might loose steering

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Another lesson learned: When rudders kick up you might loose steering

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catdan

Rank: Lubber

Registered: Jul 25, 2008

Last visit: Aug 10, 2010

Posts: 91
Posted: Oct 20, 2009 - 12:32 AM

Quotejust keep repeating... "it's only fiberglass"

On the bottom yes, but upon closer inspection, it's a foam sandwich in this section of the hull.

There seems to be two fiberglass layers with a 1/4" foam layer in between.

Does anyone have more info about this?

QuoteIn order to prevent this level of submergence I am considering adding several partially inflated rubber balls (think $5 Wal-mart 2' dia. balls). I wouldn't inflate these enough to put any pressure on the hulls just enough to hold them ball in place.

Inserting 2 or 3 of those rubber balls is a great idea.

Thanks,
Dan
catdan

Rank: Lubber

Registered: Jul 25, 2008

Last visit: Aug 10, 2010

Posts: 91
Posted: Oct 20, 2009 - 12:39 AM

Quotedo the wild thing? did you tell her that the boat might sink and you both could possibly die so this is our last chance before the sharks eat us? who held the "tiller"? so many questions. i like your style!

Maybe I have dramatized a tiny bit ;)

But yes, we were both aware of the possibility of sinking, but the worst case scenario would have been loosing the boat. We had life vests, are good swimmers, it's in the middle of the bay and there are no dangerous currents, the water is 80 degrees, so dying is highly unlikely. It's way more dangerous to walk along or crossing a busy highway...

Dan
coastrat

Rank: Chief

Registered: Jul 16, 2009

Last visit: Oct 28, 2014

Posts: 1271
Posted: Oct 20, 2009 - 08:36 AM

she doesn't have to know that but that's another subject, youtube has a video for west systems foam sandwich hull repair that is easy to follow and thorough. they also have a video for fairing techniques(like bondo on cars for a slick looking repair). finally, they have videos on gel coat repairs. there is a wealth of stuff related to this on the ole youtube, its helped me much with the ole "blue ribbon"(my '78 16' prindle). i hope you have access to some good products over there in paradise, that might be the hard part. good luck player! bill.

--
Check out "Prindle Sailors" on Facebook!
bill harris
hattiesburg, mississippi
prindle 16- "BLUE RIBBON"
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MN3

Rank: Master Chief

Registered: Jun 20, 2006

Last visit: May 22, 2024

Posts: 7089
Posted: Oct 20, 2009 - 10:13 AM

check out this amazing piece of foam in my mystere (actually in a friends)... this is incase you happen to have a pet flea or pet rock with you that needs saving.
MN3

Rank: Master Chief

Registered: Jun 20, 2006

Last visit: May 22, 2024

Posts: 7089
Posted: Oct 20, 2009 - 10:20 AM

as per adding flotation:

spray foam is actually pretty heavy and not the best choice (or it would already be used). it is used sometimes as a way to re-enforce the hulls... but not a great choice.. it also can get water logged and add a lot of weight.

inflatable balls are silly (i am trying to be more PC here...) ... as they will all float away as soon as you get a hole.... big enough for them to escape. they could work in situations (like small holes) but they are worthless in more serious failures, and isn't that what you need?

inflatable bladders would also need securing (or will float away) and at $30 (Canadian) each... you would be spending 100's on them to have any effect.

the best choice? The same foam that is in Hobie's. I dont know much about it.. or where to get it.. but it doesn't seem to get water logged, it seems like big enough in size to have a chance of staying in the hull if ripped open.

I would contact Jeremy at SurfCityRacing (jeremy@surfcitycatamarans.com) for more info and or to order some. He is very experienced in Hobie repairs
Wolfman

Rank: Chief

Registered: Jun 24, 2009

Last visit: Jun 15, 2023

Posts: 1555
Posted: Oct 20, 2009 - 10:51 AM

Andrew,
I may be missing something here. If you get a rip in your hull big enough for a beach ball to float out of it... well you have some serious problems.

I guess the fact that Dan has a huge hole in his hull would be a good opportunity to insert some foam batts easily but I was thinking more for people like myself who only have 2 ports to get stuff into (and out of) the hulls with. Those inflatable bladders are great for this purpose! A little pricey yes, but they add a LOT of floatation and conform the shape of the space they are placed in.

My wife has a 16 foot kayak with no supplementary floatation except air bladders and no bulkheads (i.e. you tip, you sink without supplemental floatation). She hasn't sank it yet.

D.

--
Dave Bonin
1981 Nacra 5.2 "Lucile"
1986 Nacra 5.7 "Belle"
Winnipeg, Manitoba, Canada
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MN3

Rank: Master Chief

Registered: Jun 20, 2006

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Posts: 7089
Posted: Oct 20, 2009 - 11:01 AM

i apologize, i misread the post.. i thought it was 2" balls, not 2' balls... all i could picture is 100's of balls spilling out of the hull

I am sure the bladders work well (especially for a plastic molded kayak that has air inside it),... but you have 300 -400lbs of glass/aluminum here. how many would you need?

if your not worried about catastrophic failure, why not use a few dozen water noodles?

edited by: andrewscott, Oct 20, 2009 - 11:04 AM
Wolfman

Rank: Chief

Registered: Jun 24, 2009

Last visit: Jun 15, 2023

Posts: 1555
Posted: Oct 20, 2009 - 02:07 PM

Hee hee, 1000 ping pong balls in each hull. That's why I like metric. :)

You would probably only need 2 bladders in each hull, maybe 3. It basically will act as an inner skin for the hull so will provide about as much bouyancy as the equivalent amount of hull space. So if you can fill the hull up by 1/3 you will probably have about as much bouyancy as the foam batts, maybe slightly less.

Noodles would work too! But I'm not sure about thier lifespan.

--
Dave Bonin
1981 Nacra 5.2 "Lucile"
1986 Nacra 5.7 "Belle"
Winnipeg, Manitoba, Canada
--
Rider_55

Rank: Mate

Registered: Jun 26, 2009

Last visit: Mar 20, 2015

Posts: 150
Posted: Oct 20, 2009 - 07:43 PM

andrewscotti apologize, i misread the post.. i thought it was 2" balls, not 2' balls... all i could picture is 100's of balls spilling out of the hull

Stop that. That is silly. Not to mention the amount of weight something like say 1000 tennis balls would add to the total boat weight.

andrewscottI am sure the bladders work well (especially for a plastic molded kayak that has air inside it),... but you have 300 -400lbs of glass/aluminum here. how many would you need?

Some rough numbers
2 FOOT diameter ball constrained by the hull shape probably has about 50% of its standard volumetric capacity. Resulting in about 2.1 cubic feet of volume per "Ball"
Lets assume that 75% of the total weight of the boat is trying to submerge the "Bad" hull. In my case the total boat weight is around 350 lbs (http://www.ussailing.org/portsmouth/mhweights01.asp) Therefore we need approximately 265 pounds of flotation.

each cubic foot of water displaced provides 62.4 pounds of buoyancy therefor in order to prevent capsize and approximately 4.25 cubic feet of flotation would be required.

This translates into just over 2 balls per side to keep the boat afloat.

andrewscottif your not worried about catastrophic failure, why not use a few dozen water noodles?

Not a bad idea either. They do however have a tenancy to soak up water so they might become saturated over time with any water in the hulls. They also may shift around quite a bit causing noise.
skarr1

Rank: Mate

Registered: Feb 25, 2007

Last visit: Jul 13, 2012

Posts: 414
Posted: Oct 22, 2009 - 06:26 PM

Factory Nacra flotation inside a 5.8
kgatesman

Rank: Mate

Registered: Feb 06, 2009

Last visit: Jun 25, 2017

Posts: 223
Posted: Oct 24, 2009 - 08:32 AM

The bilge on old MacGregors was packed at the factory with foam bricks. Dozens and dozens of foam bricks.
If you could get a foam that does not absorb water, cut it to fit the port hole, and start packing them in there, it would be the same approach.
kingwilly

Rank: Lubber

Registered: Mar 14, 2009

Last visit: Feb 05, 2014

Posts: 53
Posted: Nov 30, 2009 - 01:29 AM

lucky work in the end Catdan. (and yes it is a complete biatch to turn a boat with the rudders half way up)