Hey Everyone
Sorry for starting so many topics lately but I`m planning hard for next year and looking at replacing most of my rigging.
Does anyone run non-wire trap lines? I was looking up line and one of the recommended applications for Amsteel Blue 12 strand line is for trap lines but I can't find any information on how one would replace the actualy trap lines (or even if this is a potentially bad idea). I'm assuming you would have to do a couple of eye splices to make the new lines. I would probably hesitate to use a non-wire trap line due to the risk of abrasion but it would be a good opportunity to learn splicing and get some cool trap lines. Anyone have any experience/opinions?
I have seen some references to even replacing the running rigging on a boat with this or other, high strength low stretch line. Again I can't see this being a good idea without a really good cover material. But it is an intriguing thought considering the strength of some of these high tech ropes is higher than wire rope.
Regards,
Dave
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Dave Bonin
1981 Nacra 5.2 "Lucile"
1986 Nacra 5.7 "Belle"
Winnipeg, Manitoba, Canada
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Amsteel Trap Lines
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Posted: Dec 14, 2009 - 11:22 PM
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Posted: Dec 14, 2009 - 11:32 PM
Good question and I'm interested in hearing other opinions on it. Not that I have an answer, but more of a concern with the Amsteel having the ability to wrap appendages such as fingers or worse more easily than even the smaller dia. trap wires. hmmm....
Don't be sorry for asking questions. Answers to everyones questions led me to a lot of learning on this site. Keep it up! Btw how do you like your 5.2? My 6.0 is a BEAST! -
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Posted: Dec 14, 2009 - 11:51 PM
Yeah, I don't know if there are any good answers though.
Being an engineer I've seen a lot of composites replace traditional steel so this would make some sense to me. There is always a downside though (abrasion damage, potential stiffness issues, etc).
That's true, but I can definitely be too enthusiastic. I know I've answered a few questions that I thought I had covered but was completly off base. A real danger when one has a technical background, but is pretty much a noob in the actual sailing experience department.
I LOVE my 5.2! Everyone I talked to (except on here) told me to go with a smaller, simpler boat because it was too much for me. I picked up a couple of books and retaught myself how to sail (after a 15 year absence) and just love it! Late in the season I got up the courage to really let the boat go. It really surprised me how far I could push the boat before I got into trouble!! Now I'm dreaming about spinnakers, F17s and F18s. :)
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Dave Bonin
1981 Nacra 5.2 "Lucile"
1986 Nacra 5.7 "Belle"
Winnipeg, Manitoba, Canada
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Posted: Dec 15, 2009 - 12:09 AM
Funny how our sport does this huh? Dave, I went from an H14T to a N6.0, just because of the flotation in the hulls...and the need for speed. I love her. I am currently looking to upgrade that little boat that I like to solo. Hence the 5.2 q. And just a side note, I used to "hedge sail" my big boat as a novice trying to keep all the loads bearable to the novice sailor. As I got more comfortable I quickly understood that she is a horse that needs to run. She has more balance, helm, and better behavior when she is sheeted in and powered up!
edited by: turtlecat, Dec 14, 2009 - 11:10 PM -
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Posted: Dec 15, 2009 - 12:37 AM
This is my concern with using textile standing rigging, too...flying into a taught fishing line sounds horrible. I tried to pay attention this summer when flying around on the trapeze, and it seemed to me like the odds of a trap line getting wrapped around anything was really low. My jib halyard is about to go and the n52 jib halyard seems to be a perfect place to use HM line, so I'll start with that and go from there.
If I were to replace the trap lines w/ HM lines I'd most likely shorten them about a foot.
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Rob
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Posted: Dec 15, 2009 - 09:39 AM
YES you can replace *ALL your steel rigging (more standing vs running rigging) with HM line (amsteel, spectra, vectran, etc,). You can't really use pure HM line as running rigging as it doesn't cleat without a jacket or blended materials.
12 strand is VERY easy to splice and a great place to start
A trap line is a good place for HM line... IF your setup will permit it. I know several Tornado sailors who use spectra (dynema) for trapwires. they are light, cheap, easy to do and look cool... BUT on my mystere my set up causes chafe up top (the mast) and i was advised against it. I THINK i may still try next time i need to replace. Perhaps i will make small pig-tails for up top .. but that may remove any benefit of going to HM line.
you CAN use HM line for your shrouds but its just to easy for ANYONE with a knife to walk by and demast you... to big an Arsehole factor for me... plus i hear (from those who have done it) you spend more time re-tightening your rig (most HM lines have some creep/stretch) than its worth (every time).
If you wish to try it (trap lines)... i say go for it
You need to use thimbles on both ends (easy to do) as HM line does / can chafe and pull apart semi-quickly if you dont.
As per your fingers / arms getting wrapped up.... well i guess it is possible, but you would really have to try to get something wrapped up in a trap wire.. but its possible. I know someone who lost a digit using very very thin dynema as a dog leash..and when the dog took off after a cat.. and it was wrapped around the persons finger.... POP! -
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Posted: Dec 15, 2009 - 01:08 PM
That sounds good, I've been looking at the Brummel Eye Splice and technically it looks fairly simple. In practicality I'm sure that wrestling through the line and getting everything correct will be a challange.
I think I will redo my trap lines using amsteel blue, come sailors thimbles and some of those donut thingees to prevent chafing. Flying the hull in my Canadian Flag themed boat hanging off of bright red trap lines sounds like a neat picture! If things go well I may even consider doing the shrouds with a one of the prestretched (low creep)dyneemas or a vectran wire rope replacement. **Note to self, let the crew trapeze using the rope trap lines until I'm convinced they wont abrade and snap.**
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Dave Bonin
1981 Nacra 5.2 "Lucile"
1986 Nacra 5.7 "Belle"
Winnipeg, Manitoba, Canada
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Posted: Dec 15, 2009 - 02:28 PM
I am sorry, i guess i don't speak Canadian well enough... what the heck are you saying here? hahah
the new prestretch stuff is called Dynex Duh (actually spelled Dynex Dux :)) that is heated stretched and held overnight under load. this is supposed to remove almost all the creep BUT . . .
good data at this thread about all this - http://www.catsailor.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=170108&page=1 -
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Posted: Dec 15, 2009 - 02:38 PM
Oh, they sell plastic donuts that attach to the line space them away from the mast (and other wires). Being Canadian I prefer to buy my donuts from Tim Horton's of course. :)
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Dave Bonin
1981 Nacra 5.2 "Lucile"
1986 Nacra 5.7 "Belle"
Winnipeg, Manitoba, Canada
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Posted: Dec 15, 2009 - 03:08 PM
I have gotten wrapped up in a trap wire once. Pitchpole a SC20 with two of us on the wire (another 2 on the hull). Two of us did the peter pan out to the front. They other guy grabbed the trap line that was floating infront of him and started to pull to get him back to the boat. Ended up that wire was wrapped around my neck, so as he pulled I couldn't breath
. Once he let go we discovered how fast that boat slides across the water when tipped over. Had a motor boat stop by to pick him up 
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Scott,
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Posted: Dec 15, 2009 - 09:40 PM
Hey there's a pretty good 3 part tutorial on doing a Brummel eye splice on 12 strand Dynex Dux line. It doesn't look that hard really. I would probably put whipping (or shrink cover) over the actual splice though. Here's a link http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JCH2aR3wGVM
I believe that Annapolis Performance Sailing will be getting an order for a splicing kit some thimbles and 10 feet or so of practice line for the winter. When it's -40 out there's not much else to keep you busy if you don't like ice fishing. :)
edited by: Wolfman, Dec 15, 2009 - 08:41 PM
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Dave Bonin
1981 Nacra 5.2 "Lucile"
1986 Nacra 5.7 "Belle"
Winnipeg, Manitoba, Canada
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Posted: Dec 15, 2009 - 10:37 PM
get more than 10 feet. The 12 strand really is easy. I can take a picture of my first and only brummel, in which I didn't really know what I was doing anyway, and it looks just fine.
Eye splices in traditional double braids look really nice IMO and I found them exceptionally labor intensive considering I was working with a few feet of rope. I think the two took me 2 hours each to get final bury. Anyway, if you plan to try those you should grab a decent chunk of line. don't wanna make them and not be able to use them.
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Rob
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Posted: Dec 16, 2009 - 09:43 AM
I agree with Yurdle.. get alot more than 10'.
Splice kit? I would NOT use Sampson style fids ever again... they stink! i personally like the Selma style fid (it allows you to feed and secure the line inside the fid, unlike the Sampson which you tape it to the fid).
Even better is the Splice Wand from Bryon Toss (google it). His tool works differently than regular fids, but it works very well. It is about $60 or so.. but i love it. I also got a video from him and it convinced me that i DONT want to splice regular, double braid.. it looks crazy and time consuming. -
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Posted: Dec 16, 2009 - 11:12 AM
Hmm, I will probably just get some cheaper 12 strand (is there such a thing) to practice on then. Make some dog leashes or something. :)
Thanks for the advice on tools! I was looking at the different kits and couldn't figure out what would be best. I was going to get the Samson Fids but from your description likely the Swedish style ones would be better.
Yes, wouldn't want to do a tuck splice where you unravel all the strands! That looks crazy and is actually what i thought you had to do when splicing. Glad the Brummel looks much easier than that!
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Dave Bonin
1981 Nacra 5.2 "Lucile"
1986 Nacra 5.7 "Belle"
Winnipeg, Manitoba, Canada
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Posted: Dec 16, 2009 - 11:31 AM
Brummel's are good, but so is a simple bury eye splice (or the kind i do with 3 passes through itself)
1 hint on doing the brummel.. .have pliers handy and draw a stripe down 1 side of the line... after you invert and then un-invert.. it can be hard to find/pull the right part and the line can help find it.. pliers (needle nose) to grab and pull...
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Posted: Dec 16, 2009 - 11:31 AM
if ANYONE wants a set of Sampson Fids.. you can have mine for the cost of shipping.
edited by: andrewscott, Dec 16, 2009 - 11:31 AM -
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Posted: Dec 16, 2009 - 11:39 AM
Let me chime in. This is really simple stuff and is being over thought. Once you do it you will realize how simple it really is. I use homemade fids most of the time. They are made out of brass rod and aluminum rod. The aluminum fids I made are different size knitting needles I bought at Wally World. I cut them to my desired length and done. Brass rod can be bought at the home stores, cut to length and shape a blunt tip on one end. I have all the fids mentioned and I hardly use them. I use boxing tape to connect the butt end of each the line and fid. I keep all this stuff in my sail bag and use it regularly on the beach when needed. So simple a cave man . . .
Definitely do the trap lines. It helps to put a sacrificial cover on the top end where it connects to the hound.
P.S. The hardest part about the HM lines is getting a clean cut. Everybody has their own method. I do it two ways. Drop or two of super glue where the cut is before you cut and then cut it on the diagonal with a razerblade/boxcutter, or cut it with quality sissors after glueing. The reason for the glue is lighters don't work very good with this stuff and a hot knife is not practical on the beach.
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Philip
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Posted: Dec 16, 2009 - 12:05 PM
Yep, I mangled my vectran the first time I tried to cut it...not HM for nothin I spose.
Would a hot knife work on vectran or dyneema? I'll try the super glue idea.
I just have a few fids, a couple small Swedish fids and a larger Sampson fid. I cut up a bunch of hangars and labeled them for my fid lengths. I suppose a printed chart and a tape measure would have worked just fine for that, too.
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Rob
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Posted: Dec 16, 2009 - 12:41 PM
Yeah, I tend to overthink things, take a look at the thread I started on mast floats, then found out that I didn't need one. :)
I've done the homemade tool thing with some of my goldsmithing work (yes man of many hobbies) and found that it usually works best to actually use the purpose built tool first until you know what your doing and what you like/would change. So I will probably end up doing that for one size anyway and make the rest myself.
I have a pile of really good knives and would suggest one of those little ceramic pairing knives for cutting the line. They aren't overly expensive but they are lightsaber sharp and almost never need sharpening. The person in the youtube link above used one. Just don't drop one on your foot. I also have a rigging knife from Myerchin with a marlinspike and shackle key that would do the trick. I must say that if you are going to buy a special purpose knife for your boat those are the ones to get! The knife came super sharp out of the box and the marlinspike is actually useable both are locking too!
I thought that dyneema and vectran couldn't be hot knifed because thier melting temp is pretty high. THat was the explanation I was given for there still being all types of whipping available.
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Dave Bonin
1981 Nacra 5.2 "Lucile"
1986 Nacra 5.7 "Belle"
Winnipeg, Manitoba, Canada
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Posted: Dec 16, 2009 - 12:59 PM
a sharp razor blade works very well..
really no need to purchase special knives for this.
Not sure about the melting temp but if you try to use a flame to "cauterize" the end.. it just mushrooms up.
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