Great forum guys, I've been following it off and on for a few years; this is my first post though.
Having first gotten into sailing during High School, I jumped into Racing Lasers in New Orleans, then 420's while on the sailing team @ LSU. The team would train @ the Olympic sailing center in Miami, FL during spring break, in even smaller monohulls. I have a good understanding of sail shape and trim, and @ 6'5", I sail better in heavy wind than the light stuff.
The sailing team had an old Nacra 5.2, which in 1996 had not been sailed in several years. I took it out on lake Pontchartrain one day and was hooked on the speed. I took the boat down to Grand Isle, LA for the summer and sailed it daily. Being a dinghy sailor, I was pretty proficient with boat repairs and fiberglass work. I soon found out why the boat had been out of the water for so long. A few scary moments off shore and a few sheets of fiberglass later, the boat was back in the water. I now had a better understanding of the stress a multihull experienced when pushing it hard in heavy seas.
Fast forward to 2010, and I have been sailing a Nacra 5.7. Purchased new, in 1997 I think, from Key Sailing in Pensacola the boat has been a great platform to take friends out on the water. The boat has held up well over the years. The mast was replaced once, and two years ago a back stay broke on an especially nasty day on Santa Rosa Sound in FL.
The boat has not been in the water since I blew the stay, sadly. My in-laws have a place on South Padre island in TX. It looks like a GREAT place to sail, but the 5.7, without centerboards, is a tough boat to steer when moving fast. As compared to the 5.2 I learned on, the 5.7 exhibits weather helm that I never felt on the 5.2.
Having read through the various posts regarding the 5.7, I agree that it's a lot of boat on a windy day. I love the enormous mylar main and boomless design, but the steering is what is holding me back. I have tweaked the boat as much as my monohull background can figure out; which could be the complete wrong direction I suppose. My sailing time had been limited to one excursion a year for the past few years, so I mostly just live with it rather than experiment with the rigging.
Considering that the winds of the Laguna Madre seem steady @ 15mph or more in the summer, I'd really like to know if there is something that I can do to work with the steering. The boat has wings, dual traps and an array of tiller extensions to accommodate any condition as well as a roller furling jib.
Is there perhaps a rigging configuration with the mast that might be exacerbating this steering issue or is it just the result of not having centerboards? Or do I just need to train a crew?
I asked a few questions at the one race I did in Ocean Springs, but that was more than ten years ago, and no one had ever seen a 5,7 @ that point.
Ideally I'd like to trim sail and steer with a hull in the air, and not need to use a death grip on the tiller extension to keep the boat from trying to head up. It was easy enough on the 5.2.....
The GT300 and Ruff Riders are events I would like to do in the future, if I can resolve these issues.
Any insight would be greatly appreciated.
nacra5.7; racing it? & South TX sailing Questions.
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Posted: Feb 20, 2010 - 02:07 PM
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Posted: Feb 20, 2010 - 02:26 PM
Wc,
Thanks for joining TheBeachcats.com and great first post.
I'm sure the steering on your 5.7 just needs some tweaking, and we have plenty of Nacra guys here to help. (come on guys!)
The weather helm you are feeling could be changed by tucking the rudders more under the boat, not sure if the 5.7 has adjustable rudder position or not. That doesn't actually affect the amount of weather helm, just the load on the tiller, but if the helm isn't too severe maybe that's enough to make the boat more fun to sail.
With your background you probably know a lot more about weather helm than I do, but here's an old reliable article that spells out the how various things affect catamaran weather helm.
http://www.thebeachcats.com/Article15.html
Be sure and get back over to Ocean Springs with your boat for the Slip to Ship regatta Memorial weekend, you'll get lots of help there.
Thanks for filling out your profile.
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Damon Linkous
1992 Hobie 18
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Posted: Feb 20, 2010 - 03:34 PM
I'm no expert but I'd try raking the mast a little and finding a way to tuck the rudders a little farther, like Damon said.
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Rob
OKC
Pile of Nacra parts..
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Posted: Feb 20, 2010 - 09:10 PM
Congats, I love that boat!
Take a look at this thread about rudder rake. That is likely your problem. Raking the mast back will increase weather helm, if that is the problem the mast has to go closer to vertical.
http://www.thebeachcats.com/module-forum-viewtopic-topic-11545.html
D.
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Dave Bonin
1981 Nacra 5.2 "Lucile"
1986 Nacra 5.7 "Belle"
Winnipeg, Manitoba, Canada
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Posted: Feb 21, 2010 - 05:44 AM
Make sure that the line that pulls the rudder down is working propery and is the right size. If the line slips an inch or so it will allow the rudder to go back a little causing extreme weather helm. Check the cleats on the pivamatic as well, if worn it will allow the line to slip. I have the same system on my nacra 60 and have configured a 3 to 1 system to pull the rudder down. Easier to pull down and will hold better, but the rudder will need more force to kick up if you hit something. Not a good idea if you are sailing in shallow water. I always release my rudder lines when approaching the beach so this is not a issue for me. -
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Posted: Feb 22, 2010 - 11:41 AM
Use a good non stretch line and a configuration similar to this.
http://i133.photobucket.com/albums/q49/LT280z/IMG_0933.jpg -
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Posted: Feb 22, 2010 - 11:52 AM
download the manual from nacra and balance the helm. mast rake is probably too far forward and this will turn you into the wind big time. when rudders and mast are right leave a little weather helm for safety and performance, you will love it!
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bill harris
hattiesburg, mississippi
prindle 16- "BLUE RIBBON"
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Posted: Feb 23, 2010 - 12:02 AM
Hey. Will - this is Jim, a long time NACRA sailor. I currently have a NACRA 5.7 and a NACRA5.5 uni, but I have also owned & raced the 5.2, 5.0 and 5.8. I raced my NACRA 5.7 in the Ruffrider Regatta, and I have raced all these 5 NACRA models off the beach, and on lakes.
I consider the NACRA 5.7 to be the perfect non-spin boat for RuffRiders. The reasoning is as follows :
a) for long distance races in relatively remote areas, you don?t want to be stuck out there when the wind dies, you want to be able to finish in a reasonable time, so the bigger & faster the better. Plus, sooner to the beer.
b) Part of the Ruffruders race is in the Laguna Madre, with shallow areas and seagrass. The fewer vertical obstructions sticking down from your hulls, the less time you spend clearing them, the more time you spend sailing fast. When I sailed Ruffriders, I rigged up both rudders so they could be cleared from either side. i.e. I did not have to send my crew to low side to clear leeward rudder, we could do it all from the the windward side. We passed 3-4 boats in heavy seagrass areas with this rig. I also made a risk call to use 2:1 on the rudder pulldown, to keep the rudders from creeping upwards under pressure.
c) Surf launching - boats with daggerboards sometimes go sideways a lot in the surf, the 5.7 hull shape counters this, compared to daggerboard boar with boards retracted.
For these reasons, I think the 5.7 is a better boat than P19 or 5.8, for RuffRiders.
Although you may find relevant posts about N5.7 rudder issues on thebeachcats.com,
I would also read these posts on catsailor.com for excellent commentary on how to make it go fast (BOW DOWN) :
http://www.catsailor.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Main=15483&Number=159615
http://www.catsailor.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Main=15472&Number=159612
You also mention significant weather helm of the 5.7. All the std NACRA links will point to decent rudder tips, making sure the rudders are actually all the way down, etc. With the longer 5.7 rudders, and lack of daggerboards, you?ll definitely notice when they aren?t down all the way, more so than a 5.2. You definitely need to follow all this advice - good pivmatics that aren?t worn out, good low stretch line that won?t hold in the pivmatic, after launch, pull in tight and lock all the way down, double check after a few high speed runs.
But read the posts about hull shape & center of hydronamic resistance. The 5.7 hull shape is actually too long, it really needs longer rudder blades. But, if you balance the right amount of "bow down" without too much "rudder out", you can go really fast.
Jim Casto
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Posted: Feb 23, 2010 - 12:44 PM
I'll say it is fast. Casto beat me when I was sailing an N20 and he had forgotten to put the plugs in his 5.7.
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Posted: Feb 25, 2010 - 07:22 PM
Thanks everyone for the advice.
The rudder downhaul setup is in it's stock configuration. I'll go ahead and add some purchase to each of them and see what can be done to be certain they are tucked in. Long, thin rudders are generally considered the best shape for most boats; with this being a a board-less boat I figured that I was just going to have to deal with the wide blade shape inorder to not create more draft.... Older Prindles have nice rudder shapes (at least for me as a laser sailor). I realize it is not "necessary", but has anyone made changes in rudder shape before?
I had suspected the mast for a while, glad to know I was on the correct heading. I'm pretty certain I have the bow bar/spreader set low. I may have cut the shackles to get it lower. The forestay is set on it's lowest position.... So, suppose I should have realize that was incorrect from the beginning. Stepping a Laser mast only involves dropping a pole in a hole.
I appreciate all of the advice and will reference the tech articles you guys mentioned.
I'll let you know how it turns out.
Wc
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Posted: Feb 26, 2010 - 09:16 AM
balancing the helm is the most noticeable "tweek" you can do for your cat and it takes getting both rudders and mast right to achieve. its nice when you can hold the tiller extension with 2 fingers instead of arm wraslin' that sucker all day! the first time through takes a minute but after that its no big deal and thats when you can experiment to your liking.
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bill harris
hattiesburg, mississippi
prindle 16- "BLUE RIBBON"
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Posted: Feb 27, 2010 - 12:18 AM
Not sure on the 5.7 but my 6.0 (also a '97) does have set screws to fine tune the amount of rudder tuck you can achieve. That's the only thing I can think of that hasn't been mentioned so far.
edited by: turtlecat, Feb 26, 2010 - 11:19 PM -
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Posted: Nov 17, 2015 - 01:00 PM
I'm back!
Well, to recap what has happened (not happened) since my original post:
My Nacra 5.7 has been out of the water for 6-7 years. I moved to Ohio, and the boat continues to sit @ my parent's house in Louisiana. The boat has not seen any acton beyond it's annual wash and wax.
But, that is soon to change. I just received the green light to relocate the boat to South Padre Island and hopefully manage to spend enough time down there to get reacquainted with the boat, tune the rig (work out the mast rake/weather helm problem) and get familiar with sailing a multihull again.
The current plan is to wash, wax and rig the boat when I head down to Louisiana for Christmas. Trailer the boat up to Dallas for Christmas v2.0 and have my wife's parents take the boat from Dallas to SPI when they make their next drive down to the island.
Outside of servicing the trailer bearings, lights and new tires I think that I am in good shape. The stitching on the trampoline was pretty rotten two years ago and either needs to be re-sewn or just replace the entire trampoline. Does anyone have any experience with having trampolines repaired vs replacing? A quick online search for trampolines show replacements that have lacing down the center, but I really do like the side lace setup on the original tramp. There are a few good marine upholstery shops near the boat, so I was thinking that getting an estimate on repair would be a good first step.
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Posted: Nov 17, 2015 - 02:32 PM
Will,
I need to get some repair work done for the tramp on my a cat. But when I had it priced the repairs were most of the cost of a new one. Just a quick web search indicated that a replacement 5.7 single piece tramp runs about $300. I wouldn't be in a hurry to repair it at that price. -
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Posted: Nov 17, 2015 - 05:32 PM
It's probably a good idea to just go ahead and replace the tramp if the stitching is completely rotted out. I got a new one from SloSail for my 5.7 this summer and love it. I believe it came to around $350 after I added an additional pocket.
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Tim
81 Hobie 16
87 Nacra 5.7
Austin, TX
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Posted: Nov 17, 2015 - 11:07 PM
I just got word back from my my father, and it looks like we are looking at $50 to restitch the trampoline. I forgot that his first cousin had an upholstery shop, so it looks like there may be a family discount involved. I had been looking at the replacement trampolines, but they seem to be a bit different than the one that came on my 5.7. The current trampoline has the lacing on the side, whereas the replacement trampolines seem to be laced up the center...
Since I am not in a rush, I'll give the resewing a try. Does anyone have any experience with the Gore Tenara thread? I'd say the original stitching held up for about 10 years of direct sunlight before it began to fail. The Tenara thread seems to be a nice option, but I don't know that the rest of the trampoline would survive for another 10 years or not.
Any feedback is appreciated.
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Posted: Nov 18, 2015 - 10:25 AM
We restitched the N5.0 tramp, 4 years ago, & it's been fine. We do keep a cover on it, just an old tramp, with a bungee & "S" hook on each corner to keep sun off. The S hooks will clip under the beam strap, just where they meet the little chips. Or drill a small hole near the top of the beam end caps. Any tarp will do, but if you have to buy a $10 tarp each year, maybe spend $30 on th ebetter thread.
If you think the tramp will fail in a few years, just use whatever they would use for an awning.
Reading your original post, re: rudders.
Do you have the black plastic cleats on the pivmatics, or aluminum?
The plastic ones suffer when the teeth wear a bit. It is hardly noticeable, but that allows the line to slip, just a bit, & the rudders become a bear. Replace cleats, it is a Clamcleat Midi, they are only a couple $ at West Marine. The plastic ones will last 10 years. You can use 1/4" line with new cleats. As they wear 3/16" is better, as it allows the line to sink deeper into the teeth. You don't need super tech line, but get something low stretch.
I'll try to find the thread, I rebuilt the 5.0 rudders last spring.
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Posted: Nov 18, 2015 - 10:38 AM
The rubber cleats are aluminum, attached to the carbon fiber kick up releases. I think I ran 1/4" Vectran line for all the halyards and rudders, but it's been 6 years since I rigged the boat. I would have to assume that having my mast perfectly vertical is contributing to the weather helm. Looking at most images of cats they seem to have a little aft rake. I was a pretty hardcore Laser sailer when I got the Nacra, so I rigged it with that sort of mindset.
Lasers run a purchased downhaul on the rudder, so I was pretty certain that I had addressed any issues of the rudders creeping up being an issue. The weather helm does not necessarily get worse the longer I stay out, it's just once I get up to speed, it requires wrapping my arm around the tiller extension, or almost both hands when flying a hull. Considering how fast I was going, I sort of didn't mind it. In the one race I did with the boat it was a bit of a pain and seemed like something that was costing me boat speed.
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Posted: Nov 18, 2015 - 10:57 AM
Here are a couple of rudder links;
http://www.thebeachcats.c…nc=viewtopic&topic=15735
http://www.thebeachcats.c…pictures?g2_itemId=80972
If you have those delrin adjustments on the castings, make sure they allow your blades to sweep fully back, slightly under the boat. The leading edge of the blade should bottom out against the casting.
We have quite a bit of rake on the 5.0, less so on the 5.7.
Your position on the boat, & wind speed will also somewhat affect tiller tug.
Lastly, make sure the blades are aligned, maybe one tube is slightly bent? The manual shows how to do this, although if misaligned, it usually makes one tack worse than the other, especially in stronger wind where only one blade is doing most of the work.
My Nacra rudders are not as balanced as the MYstere, it can be sailed with a couple fingers, in all winds, but you shouldn't have to continually hold a death grip.
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Posted: Feb 11, 2016 - 04:48 PM
Will, I live in the SPI area and am looking at getting back into sailing after about 15 years. I'm in my mid 30's and would love to crew and learn next time your down this way.
I am trying to decide which boat I want for this summer, and a 5.7/570 are in the running. I also like the idea of a Hobie 21 with wings.
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Hobie Getaway
Prindle 18 - Sold
South Padre Island, TX
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