First, I appreciate any advice on this topic as I am totally confused as to a 'first beachcat'
I have sailed monohulls a lot when younger and have tried a hobie out while on vacation with the family recently and am now hooked.
I will be sailing on inland lakes, mostly with my wife and son (under 10 yrs) so am looking for a cat that I can sail with them for fun and still have some excitement rather than just drifting along at 2knts or so. I probably won't be doing solo for a while but hopefully sail with my son when he gets older. I am about 190lbs or so.
I will be storing and sailing at a club. I have looked and found a 500 and 570 which seem similar in weight/setup and look like a good first boat (2000 and 2001). I have also seen a 5.8NA that looks a lot more 'experienced based' and higher performance.- more of a boat to grow into by the looks of it (but it's really nice). So how difficult would the 5.8 be ?- thinking in terms of overall sailing, righting etc. I know it has daggerboards - but grew up with these so that's not too much of an issue.
I have moved away from a Hobie 16 it seems a little smaller than the 500 and does not look like it could fit 3 comfortably - but I may be wrong.
So looking for a little advice. Can't wait to get started and get sailing again after all these years.
Thanks,
Nacra 500, 570 or 5.8NA - Newbie Question
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Posted: Mar 13, 2010 - 08:30 AM
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Posted: Mar 13, 2010 - 08:51 AM
welcome to cat sailing.
i would avoid ANY boat with boards for a first cat. you may be comfortable with boards but they are a pain and another thing to distract you.. they would be a bunch of work in any shallow areas.. and if you hit shallows..you can really do some damage... trust me., you will have plenty of other things to manage on your cat.
i would think a 5.8 is a lot of cat to start with.. very powerful... (very).
I think the 500 would be my suggestion but the 570 could also work, just more sail area and power..
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Posted: Mar 13, 2010 - 12:46 PM
at176, welcome to thebeachcats.com, a website that can get you up and sailing with a much shorter sailing curve. First let me ask you to fill in your profile so we (registered users) can see what experience you have and where you live, might be someone in your area who could help you out.
You have a slight advantage inasmuch as you have done some monohull sailing and know how to use the wind, but that is where your experience ends. Cat sailing is a whole new ball game, the power to weight ratio of a catamaran is more than double than that of a monohull and you constantly have to be aware of and on guard for this. That said, looking at your situation on a cat, you're right about the H16, it's low volume hulls negate having more than 2 people on because then it begins to submarine. I have a H16 and love to sail solo, more speed, but cannot right this cat on my own in the event of a capsize and have to be constantly aware of this limitation.
The Nacra 5.0 is a little over 16 feet but does have high volume hulls and....no dagger boards to hassle with but might be a bit small for 3 people.
The Nacra 5.7 is a little over 18 feet and could handle 3 people with it's high volume hulls, it also has no dagger boards to deal with
You have to remember though that Nacra are high performance catamarans designed for just one purpose.....speed.
Have you ever considered the Hobie Getaway? bullet proof rotomolded high volume hulls, roller furling jib, front tramp, wing seats, huge carrying capacity, and......no daggerboards. Plus you still get the performance of a catamaran.
There are many factors to take into consideration, keep asking questions and you will get the experienced answers from a boatload of sailors who frequent this site. Hope this helps some.
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Posted: Mar 13, 2010 - 03:33 PM
Like Turbo says, please fill out your profile (link in main menu) because you'll get better advice if we know what area you are in. What Lake? There may be someone local to you on here.
For lake sailing where you launch from a ramp the daggerboard situation isn't a big deal unless your lake is very shallow or stump filled.
Not knowing where you are I don't know if this boat would be a good fit for you, but it sounds like you would be good with an 18 foot boat like the Prindle 18, Hobie 18, Prindle 18-2, Nacra 5.5 or 570-5.7, as you can see there are a lot to choose between. Most people get their first boat based more on what happens to be available for sale than worrying themselves to death over what is the "perfect" choice.
Ask questions here about specific boats as you find them.
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Posted: Mar 13, 2010 - 08:03 PM
All - thanks for the quick updates. Per suggestions I have updated my profile - I will be sailing at Lake Lanier just outside Atlanta.
Lots of good information - and you are right Damon - lots of boat choices. I need to balance the location of available boats into the equation.
I will keep researching and looking at classifieds online.
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Posted: Mar 13, 2010 - 09:55 PM
IMHO, for what you describe the first choice would be the 570, second the 500. Buy whichever one is in better condition.
I wouldn`t go after the 5.8NA unless your are SERIOUSLY committed to that boat, it is a beast and takes quite a bit to sail. It is best sailed with 2 relatively experienced people.
Both the 500 and 570 are awesome boats, reasonably simple to rig and sail and forgiving of mistakes. The 570 will handle 3 people a bit better than the 500 but both will work. The lack of daggerboards and a boom are really a plus three people and/or and a younger child on board. They can also be sailed as a uni rig single handed relatively easily.
I currently sail a 5.2 and am relatively inexperienced but have done well with it and love the boat. That being said given a choice I would toss the boards and the boom. If I could find a 570 nearby I would jump at it!!
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Dave Bonin
1981 Nacra 5.2 "Lucile"
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Posted: Mar 14, 2010 - 12:18 AM
Before I bought my 5.8, I had about 4 hours of sailing on rented Hobie 16's in 30 years. I had never been on a trapeze. I have now had the 5.8 for about 10 years. It is a 1982 model which is a little heaver than the foam cored boats.
If you sail a cat you are going to capsize. I weigh about a 180lb and can right the boat by myself with a righting pole. I had lot of capsizes at first. Most were cause by not being able to release the main sheet. After sailing on Philip Mums 5.8 I changed my main sheet line and now it will release with a flick, much better.
The dagger boards are not that hard to deal with. I have run them into the bottom about 50 times. Some of them very hard. I have had to repair the trailing edge and the front bottom of the boards several times. The boat it self is very tough. I have seen photos of split dagger board wells, but haven't done it my self.
There is no boom on the 5.8 but the main sheet block can still hit you.
I don't know if the boat is a beast compared to other boat since I have not sailed on the other boats. It is an excellent light air boat since it has more sail area. I have carried 550lb of people, two on the wire and two on deck. It wasn't fast but the newbies are now wanting to buy a cat! Loaded tents and food and camped on the National Seashore with http://www.beercruise.info/.
My 5.8 has been upgraded to the NA version " bridle foil and larger jib", roller furling jib, three traps per side, righting pole, 8 to 1 main sheet, and a Hooter.
Knowing what I know now, I would still buy the 5.8.
We will be sailing the 5.8 in Pensacola March 18 to the 21st. If your down for spring break and want a test drive let me know.
edited by: skarr1, Mar 13, 2010 - 11:33 PM -
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Posted: Mar 14, 2010 - 03:16 PM
I don't dispute that you can learn on a 5.8, probably without much trouble (similar to the way I learned on my 5.2). Given the choice though I would have preferred to learn on a boat without boards. I don't think I would steer anyone away from owning a Nacra (except maybe a N20 or an F18) as thier first boat.
Darned if I didn't think the older 5.8 had a boom... I stand corrected.
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Posted: Mar 15, 2010 - 09:18 AM
You can buy a Mclarin F1 as your first car but i wouldn't suggest it (as there are probably some bumps in the road to learn about)
Or you can buy and learn on a 200 million dollar catamaran (i hear Alhingi has a used one for sale) but that doesn't make it the best starter boat.
I would start with a smaller easier cat, and in a year or 2 sell it for the same price you bought it for (assuming you don't drop it off your trailer or hit a ferryboat) and upgrade.
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Posted: Mar 15, 2010 - 10:41 AM
Actually of all the boats ATL76 was suggesting I'm more in favor of the larger boat that does everything he needs and is a good performer from the beginning. That way he doesn't have to upgrade later and can invest his time, energy and money in the boat to get it to do what he wants. I like a boat that will grow with your skills rather than buying another used one every couple of years and dealing with someone elses problems all over again.
It may be slightly more of a learning curve than a Hobie 16 (which I personally think is a pretty tough boat to sail well as a beginner even though it is a simple rig) but it doesnt take that much longer to learn and you end up with a better behaved boat that is more versatile (and maybe faster too).
I would say the argument you propose is definitely true if you want to get into F17s and F18s . Those boats aren't for the faint hearted and although they can be sailed casually they really are meant for speed with no compromises.
So continuing with the analogy I guess what I'm saying is the Wave is like a Toyota Corolla ,H16 is more of a suped up Honda Civic (you can fit 2 small people comfortably) the 500, 570 are like Mustangs (6 and 8 cylinders), and the 5.8 is a Monte Carlo SS. The F17 and F18 are Corvettes. The new N20 is a Lamborghini!! The Alinghi is ridiculous.
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Posted: Mar 15, 2010 - 12:27 PM
i would argue as a new cat sailor, ease of rigging, ease of righting, and most importantly, the ability to not be killed (or kill your crew) when a thunderstorm takes you by surprise make starting on a smaller cat preferable.
plus i think learning different cats, repairing different cats, sailing different cats make you a more well rounded sailor. I thought i knew how to sail my h16 (i was clueless), i thought i figured it all out on my h18 (i was clueless)... i feel after 400 sails on my 5.5... i am getting it (probably clueless)
so to summarize: don't listen to me, i am clueless! :)
edited by: andrewscott, Mar 15, 2010 - 12:28 PM -
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Posted: Mar 15, 2010 - 02:50 PM
I'll give kudos to the Hobie Getaway idea! I'll echo Turbo here: That is an awesome "family" boat. Boomless main, tons of flotation, Hobie Bob (great safety idea), and good storage for a day on the water, plus the full front tramp and wings. AND...if your coming in from the mono hull side of life, the speed will be adequate for thrills. Obviously its not a racer, but the simplicity and bullet proof like construction will lend itself to more time on the water having fun instead of looking for the perfect launch site for fragile hulls (when you want a new lake to look at). You have to remember...It wont be long till your son's the main crew...and not long after that he'll want better lookin' crew! :)
edited by: turtlecat, Mar 15, 2010 - 01:53 PM -
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Posted: Mar 15, 2010 - 06:36 PM
Ditto Culley! There is always the argument for or against, but we must be careful not to let our bias, what we feel is the best for a particular person in a certain circumstance, creep through into advice given. Like Andrew says, I think I sail my H16 pretty good but I just know that if I ever come up against a professional race sailor, he will run rings around me, the downside of sailing alone most times.
In the case of ATL76, I looked at his circumstances and suggested the Hobie Getaway as this meets most of his criteria, it is just a suggestion, he must do the research and only he can make the final choice. There is a Hobie Getaway for sale on this website and it is priced to sell at just $3750, and it is not too far from Atlanta, but again, as mentioned before, most first time cat buyers just buy whatever is most convenient as to location and travel distance.
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Posted: Mar 15, 2010 - 07:09 PM
No doubt the getaway makes a nice stable party barge but with a PN of 83.3 that makes it slower than a lot of monoslugs. You would be missing out on the best part of cat sailing, hauling the mail! A nacra 570 rates 70.5, that is an order of magnitude faster. I've sailed the 5.7 back in the day and have always thought that was the acme of cruising cats. You will have plenty of room for 3 but can still be singlehanded
Why does cruising with the fam have to be slowly bobbing aroung with the monos? Might as well get a keelboat. Slower speed doesnt make it any safer, safety depends on how well the boat handles. The geteway has nice doodads and is tough construction but the nacra has nicer sailing characteristics.
I admit i'm biased against rotomolded stuff and dont mean to sound harsh. Makes sense for rental fleets with noobs but the weight takes away from a true cat experience.
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Posted: Mar 15, 2010 - 08:02 PM
Comparing 3 old cats to new sports cars does not make sense to me. Now if I could find an old Mclarin for the same price as a 5 year old Mustang and they were both drivable....... I know which on I would buy. You don't have to push the peddle to the floor or pull the main sheet tight.
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Posted: Mar 15, 2010 - 08:06 PM
570 if it checks out...best performance/family cat , no daggerboards for your son to destroy!
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Posted: Mar 15, 2010 - 08:16 PM
Slower than monoslugs? Which ones? You have to go to a really racy spinnaker dinghy to get better than 83 from a 16 1/2 foot sailboat. (Hobie 14 Turbo is 83.1)
I think you are selling the Getaway short, don't compare it's Portsmouth number to well established racing classes like the Hobie 16.
Remember that the Portsmouth is based completely on reported results from regattas, the data points for the Getaway are few, and often are reports from a single "recreational sailor" Getaway that has entered a regatta for fun. I've seen some well sailed Getaways, but more often they are carrying several people (because they can) and having a great time, but with no other boat to race head to head and get tuned up.
I bet if a serious racer wanted to win every multihull Portsmouth regatta in a Getaway they could, since I bet the true "well raced" dpn would be a couple of points lower. The mast sails and rigging on the Getaway are actually pretty high-tech compared to older design boats. It just suffers in stiffness and total weight due to its hull construction.
I'm not pushing the Getaway by any means, just don't want to leave the impression that it is "slower than a monoslug".
Try this on any of the other boats mentioned!
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Posted: Mar 15, 2010 - 09:37 PM
M20 scow rates the same, thistle and c scow are both rated faster all can take 3 plus the c only has 1 sail. Many number of small keel boats that can take it. my point is that even if the number is soft, the performance difference
between the 570 and getaway is huge.
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Posted: Mar 15, 2010 - 10:02 PM
I made the mistake of dissing the Getaway once... Getaway fans are as rabid as Nacra fans. I still think I would take a fiberglass boat over a rotomolded one 6 days a week though.
The Getaway certainly looks comfy and rotomolded hulls are tough. But it definitely isn't as sexy as 570, and the 570 can do almost everything a Getaway can do, only faster and with one hull out of the water. Its also about as easy to rig and sail.
I actually considered a brand new Wave before I got my 1981 5.2 and dropped the idea when I found out that it takes a lot of wind to fly the hull and trapping is not an option on a wave. The whole reason I actually got back into cats was memories of sailing my uncles H16 when I was 10-14 years old flying the hull and screaming around the lake. You may still get some of that with a getaway but I don't think that is its main purpose.
Anyway despite the PN debate I don't think ATL76 can really go wrong with any of the boats proposed. It really depends on how performance oriented you are and expect to be.
The Getaway is more about cruising with the family comfortably with up to 4 ot 5 people, the 500 is a bit racier for 2 people (similar in intent to the H16), the 570 is a bit bigger and faster with more sail and displacement and can be sailed with up to 3 people, the 5.8 is a real race machine with the best performance of all of them. None are overly hard to sail and all of them are relatively forgiving of mistakes. But again the progression goes from getaway, 500, 570 to 5.8 in terms of rigging and sailing difficulty.
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Posted: Mar 15, 2010 - 10:34 PM
All I gotta say is ya'll need to grow a pair. Way too much concern whether or not a boat has daggerboards or not. It's no more complicated then, . . . say, . . . remembering to put your drain plugs in.
Get the 5.8 and live on. Remember, "life is a daring adventure, or nothing at all"
5.8
5.8
5.8
5.8
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