Hello,
I did some damage to the rudder castings on my P16 this weekend on a sailing trip to Lake Michigan. We were rotating the boat in the sand and didnt notice the rudder was dug into the sand and the casting eventually just broke. Looks like it could be fixed easily enough with a quick weld, if the AL casting is weldable... I'll find out.
The problem would never have happened if the system for keeping the rudders UP was better. I have just had lots of trouble with the design of this system and want to swap it with something better. Has anyone here had good results retrofitting a P16 with Hobie, Nacra, or some other kind of rudder system? I guess there are two concerns I have that is mounting them to the hulls and also if the surface area of the rudders match the boat properly.
Thank you for the help
P16 Rudder Retrofit
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Posted: Jul 06, 2010 - 11:09 AM
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Posted: Jul 06, 2010 - 11:33 AM
First of all you probably have worn out or too thick lines in the system. Find some nice flexible 3/16 lines (4' long) & replace them all. When pulling UP line, twist it around crossbar so it stays in the V jam cleat. The casting is easily weldable by any good welder. And be more aware when turning the boat in sand--same thing can happen with any system. Pete -
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Posted: Jul 06, 2010 - 11:55 AM
Pete,
Thanks but I am looking to replace the entire rudder system with something else, not get new lines for the stock setup. -
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Posted: Jul 06, 2010 - 12:09 PM
i have had casting welded before. no big deal
I PERSONALLY think you will not find a much better system and will spend time and money retro fitting a system that is not optimized for your cat.
good luck, keep us posted -
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Posted: Jul 06, 2010 - 12:31 PM
Andrew, I know you are going to be shocked beyond all recognition and fallout on the floor . . . . . . but I totally agree with you.
Kumbaya . . .
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Philip
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Posted: Jul 06, 2010 - 12:36 PM
well folks.. the day has come.
pigs are flying
it's snowing in hell
i expect the sun will explode sometime today... (but i still aint singing Kumbaya with Philip)
edited by: andrewscott, Jul 06, 2010 - 12:36 PM -
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Posted: Jul 06, 2010 - 01:43 PM
I have owned hobies, prindle and a nacra. Replace the lines, there is no better system than prindle.
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Nacra 5.2
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Posted: Jul 06, 2010 - 02:17 PM
My issue with the Prindle system is that there's such a fine line between too hard to lock down, and too hard to pop up, and it really seems overly complex given that it most often doesn't work perfectly.
That said, don't think for a second that the Nacra system will do a better job of holding your rudders 'up'. It's quite the opposite.
Also, re-engineering another cat's rudder system is going to be a pain, and probably won't work with those assy hulls very well.
I'd start with some non stretch 3/16 line, and if that still won't hold in the jam cleat, put an actual cleat on the arm, and go from there.
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Rob
OKC
Pile of Nacra parts..
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Posted: Jul 06, 2010 - 03:26 PM
a pro welder for casting 40$-60$, new line for rudders 25$, sailing this weekend...if you go the extra mile, new ss lock nuts, bolts, and washers 15$... retro-fit sounds like something you do on your buddies boat, in case it doesn't work out, you sail your boat!
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bill harris
hattiesburg, mississippi
prindle 16- "BLUE RIBBON"
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Posted: Jul 06, 2010 - 03:39 PM
Nathan, check out http://www.dotan.com/, if you don't like the rudder setup you have then by all means go ahead and change it out, your choice. Talk to the technicians at Dotan and you decide
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TurboHobo
H14T
H16
P18
G-Cat 5.0
P16
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Posted: Jul 06, 2010 - 03:43 PM
Point taken. The rudder system isn't in complete disrepair or anything; the lines are still OK but the pulleys should be replaced. Maybe after a clean up/repair it will be better but it just seems like a pretty poor overall design IMO.
I'll probably be looking for a different rig that could work better and try it out if its possible to mount it without making any permanent changes to the boat. Just a little suprised that this isnt a common thing to do. -
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Posted: Jul 06, 2010 - 05:14 PM
my rudders were in rough shape when i got the boat, it was one of the first things i had to address. the lock down bolts were worn, every bolt in them was bent, lines were shot,...etc.. as i went through the learning curve and straighten out everything, they got better and better. now they work perfectly and i can tune and repair them quickly. get the slop out first, then set the tow, then set rake and you will love them.
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bill harris
hattiesburg, mississippi
prindle 16- "BLUE RIBBON"
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Posted: Jul 06, 2010 - 05:56 PM
Rudders are the achilles heel of most beach catamarans.
My beloved Mystere's are know for their crappy rudder castings.they are poorly made and break easy. i bought up all the spare parts i could when i got my boat.
even if the lines look good... i would change them if its not hard to do. i have found, even if it looks ok, if it's cheap and easy.. change it anyway.. it might fix the problem, and wont hurt to replace.
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Posted: Jul 06, 2010 - 07:39 PM
Ok, I can help you in either one of two ways ;)
I can take you the steps of what it will take to change
out to a Nacra rudder system. Pretty simple stuff, but
you'll need the right tools, hand riveter, hacksaw, drill
and some various hardware from Lowes and West Marine.
Pics of Nacra rudders on my P19 can be seen here:
http://www.thebeachcats.com/index.php?module=pictures&g2_itemId=72912
Or, you can buy the set I took off my P19, the whole set can
be seen here:
http://www.thebeachcats.com/classifieds/showproduct.php/product/10297/cat/4
Rudder change ran about $1000
Complete 2nd gen Prindle Rudder System (used): $625
PM me for more info on both ways :)
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Posted: Jul 06, 2010 - 07:46 PM
Butch,
A P19 ain't even close to a boardless asymmetrical hulled P16.
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Philip
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Posted: Jul 06, 2010 - 07:48 PM
Phillip,
I know what the differences are.
Fit, sidereal rake, and clearences are the only
stumbling blocks from putting any rudder system
on any boat.
If it can be done...the BeachCat people are the
ones who have either already done it...or can
figure out how it can be done.
edited by: ButchG, Jul 06, 2010 - 06:55 PM -
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Posted: Jul 06, 2010 - 08:43 PM
Not that simple. Rudder length and aspect ratio are pretty darn important on boardless boats. Your statement paints a picture with a pretty broad stroke.
I'm wondering if Nathan was interested in spending $600-$1000 on retrofitting a boat that itself might not cost that much.
Breaking a rudder or casting like Nathan did is not all that uncommon, and is part of the learning experience. Learning from the costly mistakes made, and learning the importance of keeping the rig tuned up. We've all been there.
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Philip
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Posted: Jul 06, 2010 - 09:01 PM
i hit bottom coming near the beach and broke my 83 old style h18 castings. instead of a $100-150 repair, i went with an 800 upgrade from murray's.
in hindsight... i shoulda saved my money as it did little in the resale value (sold in 45 minutes on this site)
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