mast float install on a Prindle
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Posted: Sep 09, 2010 - 09:38 PM
In case it's not clear, the righting bag is attached to the righting line. You are just pushing the bag away from the boat to right. I have also tied a loop in the righting line that I hook my trap harness on to. -
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Posted: Sep 10, 2010 - 04:10 PM
i was mostly thinking that no matter how it's attached one is still in the position of holding it and self out from the hull in an effort to counter-weight.
but all sounds good.
-j
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Posted: Sep 11, 2010 - 11:45 AM
I think what SKARR is trying to say is that yes, you do have to support your body weight in the horizontal position, BUT you are not holding the weight of the bag. The bag is secured to the righting line, & while you do exert some effort to push it outwards, the effort required is only a fraction of the bag weight.
Think of a 200 lb weight hanging from a line attached to the ceiling, the bag is hanging against a wall, 6" from the floor.
I could not lift that bag up, but I could step between the bag & the wall, brace my feet against the wall & push out. With the line over my shoulder, I could easily push the bag 4' or more from the wall.
If you calculated a resolution of vectors, you would see that the greater the distance you push the bag, the more of its mass you are holding up. Eventually, if you pushed the bag outwards a distance that equals the length of the line, you would be supporting the entire 200 lbs, but the initial couple of feet is very little effort.
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Posted: Jan 04, 2011 - 04:18 PM
jnesbitt- I purchased a P19MX #247 86' in Jan-2010 my first cat, I only sail solo. I practiced capsizes weekends all may here 41.630809,-71.227241 in RI. I weigh 170+15 for wetsuit and vest. On days less than 10k It is not going to happen with out a bag. I use Murray's large bag and tackle. But when it is really fresh it comes up real easy just me the line and the bows into the wind. With more practice, I may not need the bag and put on the classifieds.
Always wear your vest.
Edited by johno3300 on Jan 04, 2011 - 02:24 PM.
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Portsmouth RI
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Posted: Jan 04, 2011 - 08:48 PM
you've inspired me to practice capsizing. and to get a bag. The more i reviewed the comments on this thread I'm more convinced that a float isn't the right solution, a pole may be overkill, and that knowledge and practice (along with a vest) are the best things i can take out with me.
thanks all. -
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Posted: Jan 05, 2011 - 12:54 AM
Getting the mast higher in the water will help quite a bit and you don't need much volume to do it. If you want to try out a mast float the easiest thing is to do is tie a a couple 4 L (gallon) milk jugs to the Main Sail headboard (metal bit on the top of the sail. That will work as well as a hobie bob. is super cheap but looks like crap.
Other things to take note of when righting.
#1 make sure the righting line is going OVER the top hull, not under and it should be in line with the front beam. This gives you the most leverage and puts you in line with the center of gravity of the boat.
#2 Don't just unceat your main and jib, uncleat them and pull the blocks out so they are completely loose. That way the sail will hang down in the water and you won't have to lift all that water weight.
#3 If you have flipped it an the sails are all the way under water instead of pointing the bows directly into the wind, point them 45 degrees to the wind. That way the wind will push against your tramp and give you some extra force. Word of caution though, when she comes up, jump to the dolphinstriker and hang on. The momentum and the wind will try and take you over the other way, you have to hold the boat down to prevent this, normally the upwind hull will lift up a couple of inches and come down, sometimes it will come up a couple of feet.
The bag is probably the most proven method of righting the boat. At 170 lbs and with a prindle 19, you will probably need one. Hardest part is retrieving the thing once you are righted. If you are 220 lbs and have a fairly light boat (like me) you probably don't need one. Righting my cat is the only advantage I have found to getting old and fat.
D.
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Posted: Jan 05, 2011 - 11:30 AM
if you have you mast sealed good on top(not bottom,leave unsealed to let water out), it works fine...swim those bows into the wind, this will keep the wind from blowing on the underside of the tramp and pushing the mast head underwater further.
after getting a good technique now practice even harder on not flipping...you don't have to flip the boat if you don't want to. you can still have all the hull flying fun you want but when you get a good feel for the boat, you can totaly control it. accidents do happen but that would be the only reason you flipped, not lack of skills.
whenever you flip the boat and climb up on the inner hulls, the weight of your knees/feet on the hulls damages them a little each time. so many older boats have "wavey" hulls right where you stand and hold the righting line. for foam core boats this will create soft spots/delams and its even worse for the solid glass hulls giving the old "oil can" effect which leads to cracked glass. the hulls were not designed to be bounced on a whole bunch.
you definitely need to know how to right the boat easily and even more importantly, how to get back on the thing!(even trickier for us old fat guys!)
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prindle 16- "BLUE RIBBON"
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Posted: Jan 06, 2011 - 09:13 PM
I used to believe a well sealed mast was all you needed, I have now changed my mind and will install a float this spring. I think someone else in an earlier post chided me for stating a float was not needed, I am in his camp now.
I sail a two man boat, solo quite a bit, & often with very few other boats around. My mast is sealed & will float if thrown in the lake.
Last fall I went over, the mast & top foot or so of the sail "dug in" as the wind (20-30 mph)drifted the boat & it turtled in less than 5 seconds. Getting it back on its side was an experience I don't wish to repeat. One other time, the only thing that prevented a full turtle was the 30' mast stuck in the mud. When you tip, as long as the mast is not dead downwind, the boat (mine anyway) seems to pivot, & the mast will stay floating. No matter how well the mast is sealed, if you are sailing in strong wind & flip with the mast tip dead downwind there is a very good chance that it will dig in. As the boat drifts, the short part that is in the water acts just like the curve of a chisel, & keeps diving. the drifting boat drives it further down, & you can turtle in seconds.
Most people leave the bottom end of the mast open for drainage. Imagine your boat turtled, that open drain, perched on top of the DS rod & mast ball is well above the tramp, meaning it is now underwater & filling up fast. With anysize openings it would only take a few minutes to take on several gallons of water, water that ends up right at the masthead. You now have a serious bitch of a problem. I was lucky & got mine wrestled back on its side very quickly. With crew in the wires & other mayhem you could easily be 5 minutes getting things sorted out, even a gallon or two at the masthead would make it very difficult to gat sideways, let alone right the boat.
It might not lok as cool, & if there is always help around, your water is shallow or yu never tip, a sealed mast is probably all you need.
I am going to prevent my boat from ever turtling. I know I can get it back from its side, full turtle might really wreck my day several miles from shore. Bring on the milk jug. I'm going to try fabricating one that weighs 1/2 of a Baby Bob.
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Posted: Jan 07, 2011 - 07:43 AM
I always did have an opening for draining and checking if there was any water in my mast, but it was never left open. I used a screw and sealant to keep it closed, the only time I ever took off the sealant and removed the screw was if I had flipped a few times and wanted to make sure that the mast was still sealed and no water was there. It is hard for me to believe that someone actually leaves the drainage hole open and not sealed when sailing. -
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Posted: Jan 07, 2011 - 03:29 PM
EdChris: FWIW..I agree 100% with your latest post in regards to my Hobie 14-T and 16. The 14 will turtle quickly regardless... the 16 not so much, but it will go all the way in high wind (especially after a beam/broad reach crash, but less likely upwind). Both have well sealed masts, but the reservoir I normally sail on is relatively shallow and muddy. If the masthead gets stuck, power assistance is required.....not good!
I also disagree that having openings at the bottom of the mast is not a good idea where it can be prevented. {Note that it may not be preventable on some boats (e.g., w/internal halyards)}. In addition to your point about turtling, if even what would otherwise be a small leak develops at the top of the mast, it will be much worse when air is allowed to escape from the bottom.
I still take my chances on the 16, but earlier this year I started sailing with two sealed gallon orange juice jugs on top of the 14 mast, then recently installed a Baby Bob (haven't had a chance to test it). The 14 is sailed mostly by my teenage daughter, so I'm even less inclined to take chances there!
Edited by rattlenhum on Jan 07, 2011 - 01:32 PM.
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Jerome Vaughan
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Posted: Jan 07, 2011 - 05:57 PM
How much harder is a boat to right with a Hobie BOB installed on the mast? I know raising a mast with a BOB installed is more difficult. That 5 lbs at the end of a 30' pole adds up fast when trying to raise the mast, and would think a similar situation when righting a boat. I have never flipped a boat with a BOB installed, flipped without one plenty of times
A couple of milk jugs don't weigh nearly as much as an official float.
Edited by smfinley on Jan 07, 2011 - 02:58 PM.
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Scott,
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Posted: Jan 08, 2011 - 09:26 AM
please not water/milk jugs..... maybe 2-3 of these?
http://www.boatcovers.cc/…in/catalog.pl?item_id=11
or one of these?
http://www.boatcovers.cc/…bin/catalog.pl?item_id=7
not sure how much they weigh, but it would seem that 5 lbs at the end of 30 ft equates to 150ft/lbs of torque working against you.
Edited by ingasguns on Jan 08, 2011 - 07:36 AM. -
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Posted: Jan 10, 2011 - 11:58 AM
I can only right my 5.7 solo if there is a good wind. Otherwise I have to break out the bag. As you alluded to, 5 lb at the end of a 30' stick is quite a bit of extra leverage. For that reason I'm going to experiment with some really lightweight things.
The Bob nullifies some of its weight disadvantage by being hard mounted. That keeps the mast a few inches out of the water, & that first few inches is the toughest. If you just tied a float at the mast head it would allow the mast tip to be submerged.
I have some ideas to hardmount a lightweight float, it wouldn't be as robust as a Bob, but if it is simple to replace, & lasts one season, it would be a better choice. I'll post it in the spring.
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Posted: Jan 15, 2011 - 12:28 PM
g2_view=core.DownloadItem&g2_itemId=79097&g2_serialNumber=3&g2_GALLERYSID=ecd3adbe7feec27a1ab4fe14c47d7ada
g2_view=core.DownloadItem&g2_itemId=79100&g2_serialNumber=3&g2_GALLERYSID=ecd3adbe7feec27a1ab4fe14c47d7ada[/img]Fellas, there's nothing better than being in a full harness trapped out all by youreself on a reach. Just the sound of the water hissing under the hulls and being all alone on a big body of water is exhilarating! But anyone who knows me also knows I like to push things a little past common sense sometimes. That's why, if you find youreself in the drink miles from home with no one around, you better be prepared for a self rescue. My solo boat of choice is my NACRA 5.0 and I have modified it to help insure my safe return. After a full turtle and an embarrasing rescue by some Hobie sailors I decide to get a Hobie Bob for the mast. But..Jeez, they want over $200.00 bucks for those things!!! So I took a trip down to the soft water store for a bottle, then to the big box hardware store for aluminum straps and stainless bolts and locknuts and Hey, instant mast float for under $10.00 bucks. Only problem is, the wags on the beach started calling me the "Culligan Man"! So..I'm a tight-ass! I next installed a righting pole copied directly from Rick Whites design. Where mine differs, is instead of stopper knots to adjust pole angles I used trapeeze rope locks with 1/4" pre-stretched Marlow. I used a 2-1/4" x .083wall aluminum tube and the same kind of indestructable plastic cutting boards are made of for the hinge. It rotates on the dolphin striker rod and hinges down for leverage adjustment. The block on the end of the pole is for the line attatched to a righting bag in case things really turn to shit. While standing on the hull, fill the bag, run the line through the block. One hand pulls down on the line while the other lifts the bag. I try not to use the bag as retrieval can be a bear once you are under way. Chris, I agree with you about having the mast sealed top to bottom but the removable drain screw is an idea I will have installed by next spring. And last but not least when I go out by myself I leave word about when I should return, ALWAYS wear my life jacket and have a cell phone in a waterproof bag tucked away on my person. Don't put it in your tramp bag, you may get seperated!I'm trying to get some pictures posted with this thread but after a few beers my computer skills go south. The pics of the Bob and pole can also be found in the Beachcats people album under my name.
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Posted: Jan 17, 2011 - 11:16 AM
You have to click in "image" (found in the little boxes below where you type) then paste the photo link from your album where the cursor defaults, inside the "(img)" brackets. Send me the extra beer & keep your computer skills up
Do you think the large bottle is overkill? Would 1/2 that size be enough, 2 gal would give nearly 20 lbs. I was thinking to glue a few pieces of styrofoam SM together, then hot wire cut to a "Bob" shape, & cover with one sheet of matt/resin. Your idea is much simpler. I'm going to build a pole this spring, it seems much quicker than rigging the bag. I attached a 2' nylon strap to the outside bottom of my bag. You just grab that, it allows you to retrieve the bag bottom end first. The bag empties & collapses, allowing for easy retrieve, except for that last sail of the season when everything went wrong.
I had emailed Jcasto for some more detailed photos of his system, but never heard back.
Edited by Edchris177 on Jan 17, 2011 - 09:32 AM.
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Posted: Jan 17, 2011 - 10:28 PM
Yeah, Chris I followed the instructions but something happened between copy and paste. I think it was the Samuel Adams Winter Classics sampler 12-pak! White Ale, Holiday Porter, Boston Lager, Chocolate Bock, Winter Lager...and it was on sale!! As far as the 5 gal water bottle goes..I felt the light weight and extra flotation was worth it. Sure has worked well. The bottle, righting pole and waterbag may seem a little anal but I want the odds in my favor when I'm by myself. When it comes right down to it..the best, cheapest, simplest righting system is just an 8-10 foot, 1/2" rope tied around the mast base and thrown over the hull. A couple knots tied for grip and your set. Only thing is, for anything bigger than a Hobie 16 you need a crewmember to help. The missus and I are taking off for Mo-Bay on Saturday and we'll sail the resorts little Hobie Wave bathtub toys. It's interesting to note that all the Waves down there have the Hobie Bobs on them. Resort owners get a little wierded out thinking about drowning customers! I used to dump them and when the rescue boat was within a hundred yards, grab the tramp lacing and pop-'em back up. Had to quit it though...they were getting a bit pissy about it! Say, you're from Canada, right? Check out the Prindle 16 icebreaker vid in yesterdays postings. My first thought was "No Thanks" I'll buy a plane ticket to Jamaica!! -
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Posted: Jan 17, 2011 - 11:05 PM
I hear you, solo on the 5.7 miles from shore, I want a faster easier way to right, with no chance to turtle. It is easy to sail conservatively all day & never flip, but I like to fly a hull as much as I can, & I'm not good enough to be sure I won't lose it, so a float will be added The line works fine, as you say, if I have a crew. I have done it solo, but it's work. I have thought about experimenting with a couple of foam block "stilts" with foot straps. If I was 8-12" taller I'd be golden. In the end the pole seems the simplest. I'll do some experimenting in the spring with mast floats & post the results.
We had Wave races every day in Antigua, I actually beat the instructors once. They handed the boats out to Newbies after a 10 minute talk about how to sail them. I think the Bob is standard on all Club Waves. We saw quite a few go over in the 20-30 mph trade winds, along with several pitch poles.
I saw that video, I love cat sailing, but 10 days in Antigua looked like more fun than that. Gotta give them credit though, what a crazy ass sail. Reminded me of my early days as a bush pilot. We would fly floats in the Arctic right til freeze up. You would be crawling along the float,(you didn't dare stand) with a little box of sand. The damn water rudders would freeze upon takeoff, even though we coated the cables with grease. Upon landing you had to try & "plow" to keep the keels down til they melted free, or else paddle to shore. Banging into the rocks like that would be $$$$, along with your ass.
Edited by Edchris177 on Jan 17, 2011 - 09:05 PM.
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