The weight is not a huge concern, here's the question:
Does the foam in the hulls increase the chance that they will break apart or that the boat will otherwise catastrophically fail under heavy sail/seas?
As for the mast, couldn't the rivets be redone, possibly a size larger. Hand pop riveting isn't terribly involved.
Thanks.
Nacra 5.8 demasted while sailing
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Posted: Apr 11, 2013 - 01:42 PM
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Posted: Apr 11, 2013 - 02:13 PM
Weight IS a huge concern when you make a beachcat heavier than it was designed. Heavier means it displaces more water and increases stresses everywhere. So yes, in my opinion a boat partially filled with foam is more likely to have major problems.
The other big concern with foam is that it is often put in to "fix" problems like soft spots or leaks, and once the foam is in it makes it extremely difficult to fix properly.
Also, in the case of this boat, those hatches, look like a problem. In all but the lightest winds and smoothest water they will spend time submerged. If they leak at all they will fill with water.
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Posted: Apr 11, 2013 - 02:49 PM
I'm going to go take a closer look at it. -
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Posted: Apr 11, 2013 - 04:08 PM
I think your biggest concern with these mods is that you're also planning to use the boat in the surf. That will be extremely stressful (just go watch some GT300 vids) and any spots that are significantly different stiffness, especially if they're heavier as well, aren't going to work out for long while taking a beating. Same thing with inspection ports in front of the main beam...actually, imo, ports in front of the main beam essentially make the hulls disposable. I haven't looked closely at the pics, though, just going by what ppl here have said.
Your post about using the motor and battery, though, demonstrate that your needs are clearly so different from mine that I can't really comment further about what would or wouldn't work for you. But regardless, seriously, the surf will likely sink that boat.
Good luck,
Someone that sunk a cat and swam back to shore.
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Posted: Apr 11, 2013 - 04:11 PM
I went and looked at the pics..'half full' of foam sounds insane, but after looking, I think that regardless of the foam, as Philip said, the dolphin striker, inspection ports, and holes in the main beam just inside of the hull connections def make that thing soon-to-be-bowless if it goes through much surf. That's not to slam anyone's boat, and the paint is pretty, but I know I break things much sturdier than that looks quite often.
The spinnaker tang is noteworthy to me...I bet that boat's had an interesting life.
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Posted: Apr 11, 2013 - 05:28 PM
The answer to that depends.
When the foam is installed, it expands, no surprise there. However the foam CAN create pressure. Pressure is a Bad thing. There needs to be resistance to flow to create pressure, meaning that this depends how it was installed. In this case we do not know that. If the foam is contained, or installed in such a high quantity that it cannot "vent" properly, it can push on everything in the hulls. No different than blowing up hulls with an air. There are numerous people on the forum who have destroyed hulls with a shop vac putting some air into the hulls looking for leaks. I have personally seen a boat in Florida that had rippled hulls from foam. In this case it was a severe delamination problem that the owner was making a last ditch effort to repair.
Later in the boats life, no matter how the foam was installed, it will take on water. This adds weight, ALOT of weight. Ask a Hobie monocat owner. My monocat started life at 200lbs, when I threw it in the dump it was more like 600lbs. So your stressing the boat more all of the time with the extra weight.
The damp foam creates another problem, your inside of the boat will be permanently be damp. This causes blisters and other fiberglass problems.
Check out my P19, makes you second quess port holes in front of the beam.
Edited by bacho on Apr 11, 2013 - 05:29 PM.
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Posted: Apr 11, 2013 - 09:31 PM
Pics coming soon. I think you will see that while the boat may not be great, the mods are not as bad as you all thought. Maybe not by a long shot.
Three issues we'll adress:
Mast rivet corrosion
Hole cut out in main crossbar for wingseat
Stuffing, which is medium density polyeurethane
As for earlier concerns, the boat measures about 19' 2" hulls only, 20 on the nose including rudder frame but not rudder itself. It is not sandwhich core, it is just fiberglass, probably pre 85. Fiberglass seems to be in great shape, boat is very stiff, no soft spots in hollow areas; whole area in front of front crossbar.
voila nothing is cut out of crossbar. Seat assembly is stainless steel, plates were rounded to meet curvature of bar, and gasket was added to prevent bi-metal corrosion.
Pictures don't show well but mast is not corroded. Clear silicone was added around all rivets, tang, etc to ensure positive buoyancy. One thing to note about the mast is that is has tension cables:
Daggerboards were home made going only by pictures, originals were lost or broken:
Homemade motor mount better that chelea one:
Hull is thin, this shows some of the medium density polyeurethan that spilled over into here. It was applied liquid, the boat does feel a bit heavy, but not much over 400 pounds.
Edited by biscaynecatsailor on Apr 11, 2013 - 11:20 PM. -
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Posted: Apr 12, 2013 - 05:28 AM
Originally you sounded like it might be too much money, which was confirmed here. Now it seems your tryin to sell it to us.
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Posted: Apr 12, 2013 - 06:05 AM
Biscayne, if as you say the boat is all glass this is a definite plus for a cruiser. The mods are well done and well thought out. If what you want is a cruiser, this boat will fill that bill.
The additional weight of the mods plus crew load is going to increase the draft considerable. Adding the wings increases the righting moment, this is not ALWAYS a good thing. If you INCREASE the righting moment and INCREASE the draft and then......................... stay with me..................... fully power the sail, you overload the standing rigging because the boat cannot spill any air by heeling. This in turn overloads all the tangs and attachment points.
If you just want to cruise (which is pretty much all this boat is good for), then downsize the sail plan and accept that hull flying isn't in the cards. Downsizing the sail plan will bring the rig loading back within the tolerances the original designer drafted.
We all pay for our education, one way or another, advice is also worth what you pay for it (you ain't paying much on this board.) Let us know a year from now if this boat was 'a good deal.'
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Posted: Apr 12, 2013 - 07:00 AM
Probably with four or more people flying the hull won't be in the plan, besides that kind of wind doesn't happen often. But for sailing with one or two people the added weight might actually be nice for keeping the boat more steady and controlled. I know adding the little motor/mount/battery to the 17 made it noticably more balanced than without. I know soloing on a H16 you have to be really on the ball in a good wind and it's hard to even get them going.
I understand one of the other major concerns here is the access ports in front of the forward crossbar? They are not original, or they are and it was just a bad design?
Edited by biscaynecatsailor on Apr 12, 2013 - 08:00 AM. -
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Posted: Apr 12, 2013 - 07:21 AM
They were probably installed to make a repair on the beam bolts or to drain water that may now be trapped in front of the foam section.
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Posted: Apr 12, 2013 - 07:42 AM
Have you considered a Getaway?
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Rob
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Posted: Apr 12, 2013 - 08:48 AM
Boats don't seem to come up a lot here. I basically just search CL SFL and Keys for keyword hobie or nacra now and then. Hobie getaway is pretty new. I thought it was like a watered down replacement for the 18, also with no dagger boards like a 16, therefore it must pitchpole like a 16 with stubborn hulls that don't like to go forward.
Someone actually told me you can find better deals around tampa area where a lot of older people are selling them cheap because they're one foot on a banana peel other in the grave and don't really need the money anyway. Don't really like to make that kind of a trip if there's even a significant chance of just ending up looking at a boat and not even getting it.
Edited by biscaynecatsailor on Apr 12, 2013 - 09:52 AM. -
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Posted: Apr 12, 2013 - 09:27 AM
Same thought as yurdle, consider the Getaway, rotomolded plastic hulls, almost indestructible, cooler hatches, wing seats, roller furling jib, forward tramp, the hulls are high volume hulls and the boat sits high on the water.
Just to bring you up to speed on the Hobie 16, although the boat is over 30 years old, there has never been a more successful design, the distinct banana shape was specifically for handling California surf, not the baby waves you get in Florida, but 4'-6' waves. The jib on the H16 was over-sized, more like a Genoa, and it is this over-sized jib as well as the position of the bridle wires up on the bow that gives the H16 it's pitch-pole tendency. Most professionally set-up H16's have foot straps on the rear of the hulls, about 8"-12" forward of the transom, so that they can trap off the back of the boat on a screaming reach, 1 foot in the strap, the other foot braced against the rear beam. Been there, done that, nothing more exciting other than sitting on a sidewinder and asking your kid brother to light the fuse.......
But the Getaway would seem to suite your situation, can carry 4-6 adults + beverage + gear and can still get up some good speed, you can island hop, drive it up onto beaches, furl the jib in a big blow, add an anchor, it has no boom, did I mention it has good speed.....???
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Posted: Apr 12, 2013 - 04:21 PM
Well they told me the access holes in front of forward crossbar came with the boat.
Edited by biscaynecatsailor on Apr 12, 2013 - 05:22 PM. -
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Posted: Apr 12, 2013 - 08:38 PM
Catsailor, despite the advice of many more experienced sailors, you seem to be set on this particular N5.8 for whatever reason. By all means then, go ahead and acquire the boat, ultimately, it is your decision. Please keep us updated.
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Posted: Apr 12, 2013 - 09:51 PM
I probably won't even have to. Just listen to a coast guard scanner or something.
"uh lets intercept this unidentified floating object, looks to be some kind of a cuba contraption...oh no just a broken up ghetto rigged nacra that someone was stupid enough to buy and sail alone in the ocean without even a cell phone on." -
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Posted: Apr 13, 2013 - 04:36 AM
Some sailing lessons would be a wiser use of your funds. Thanks for the entertainment in this thread!
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Posted: Apr 13, 2013 - 11:18 AM
Last issue I forgot. Mast corrosion. Here's some better pics tell me how bad you think it is. Remember the rivets all have clear silicone which shows more poorly with the camera flash than in real life.
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Posted: Apr 13, 2013 - 11:36 AM
The silicone on some of those fittings is just around the fitting to prevent water getting in. And that's good. It isn't separating the two metals, though.
No question, even without the pics, that an aluminum mast with stainless fittings in a coastal area will have galvanic corrosion. If there is a question, it is 'how bad?'
To me, that just falls in the 'everything's got a price' category.
I like the shackle in the first pic.
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Rob
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