Should I replace my trapeze wires with non-metal line? What is recommended here?
--
Gray Amick
Chapin, SC
'77 NACRA 5.2
--
Trap wire replacment
-
- Rank: Mate
- Registered: Dec 21, 2009
- Last visit: Apr 16, 2013
- Posts: 127
Posted: May 17, 2011 - 11:33 AM
-
- Rank: Administrator
- Registered: Jul 19, 2001
- Last visit: Nov 15, 2024
- Posts: 3446
Posted: May 17, 2011 - 01:49 PM
Should you, or can you?
Why are you thinking of doing this? I know it's done on the latest high-tech boats by the top pro skippers, maybe that's reason enough.
--
Damon Linkous
1992 Hobie 18
Memphis, TN
How To Create Your Signature
How To Create Your Own Cool Avatar
How To Display Pictures In The Forums.
-- -
- Rank: Chief
- Registered: Jun 24, 2009
- Last visit: Jun 15, 2023
- Posts: 1555
Posted: May 17, 2011 - 02:01 PM
You can, but I looked into it pretty seriously and didn't (and I'm the biggest high tech nut there is). To get line that is suitable is more expensive than ordering the wires and you need to get the eye splices done (I don't trust myself enough to do it). They you should also get them coated near the attachement points or wherever they may rub. Even with all that you are saving very little as far as weight, spending a lot more money and it still may dump you in the drink unexpectedly.
If you are looking for a 'gentler' wire, go with a PVC coated trap wire. YEah I know everyone here recommends against them, but honestly if you keep an eye on the ends (where the corrosion and fraying are going to happen) and plan on replacing them when the coating becomes brittle you will be OK. There is a reason that all the manufacturers sell their boats with coated lines stock.
If you are planning on going high tech the way to go is PBO rigging. A coated fiber product. Again Super Expensive and if you are outfitting a 5.2 well it's like giving octomom a silk purse... or somthing like that. :) You are better off saving up for a carbon mast the provides some discernable benefit in weight and performance and could be reused on a newer boat eventually.
D.
--
Dave Bonin
1981 Nacra 5.2 "Lucile"
1986 Nacra 5.7 "Belle"
Winnipeg, Manitoba, Canada
-- -
- Rank: Lubber
- Registered: Sep 24, 2009
- Last visit: May 17, 2019
- Posts: 96
Posted: May 17, 2011 - 03:00 PM
I switched my trap lines on my Capricorn to Dyneema when I noticed one of the thimble ends on the wire was beginning to corrode. I made them myself under the direction of someone who knew how to do it. It is very simple to make a spliced eye end and the cost was about $32 (.65 per foot for 1/8" Dyneema) for a pair as compared to $50 for a pair from Murrays. I was able to re-use my handles which helps keeps the price down.
Fun In the Sun (my AHPC Dealer) is telling me I can replace my shrouds with Dyneema, too. My concern with that conversion is that I read that Dyneema stretches slightly over time. I would need to use a tension guage every time I rig to make sure the shroud tension is consistant.
My 2 cents for what its worth.
Thanks!
Edited by ericweller on May 17, 2011 - 05:29 PM. -
- Rank: Chief
- Registered: Jun 24, 2009
- Last visit: Jun 15, 2023
- Posts: 1555
Posted: May 17, 2011 - 03:09 PM
If you want to avoid the creep issue (stretching over time) you can use a vectran line which is lower creep than steel. Again I would seriously consider coating the points of contact with the mast as abrasion is a huge issue with these lines. Even with a UV resistant line they still break down over time. On a Capricorn, which is a recent high tech boat it probably makes some sense. On a 1978 Nacra 5.2, it is pretty marginal except for the coolness factor.
And that does mean something to some people, my sheets and halyards are worth more than the whole boat. :)
D.
Edited by Wolfman on May 17, 2011 - 03:10 PM.
--
Dave Bonin
1981 Nacra 5.2 "Lucile"
1986 Nacra 5.7 "Belle"
Winnipeg, Manitoba, Canada
-- -
- Rank: Administrator
- Registered: Jul 19, 2001
- Last visit: Nov 15, 2024
- Posts: 3446
Posted: May 17, 2011 - 03:16 PM
Eric: Thanks for the info, good to hear from someone who has done it.
Dave: Never underestimate the coolness factor.
--
Damon Linkous
1992 Hobie 18
Memphis, TN
How To Create Your Signature
How To Create Your Own Cool Avatar
How To Display Pictures In The Forums.
-- -
- Rank: Chief
- Registered: Jun 24, 2009
- Last visit: Jun 15, 2023
- Posts: 1555
Posted: May 17, 2011 - 05:47 PM
You don't have to tell me, I've put thousands of dollars into my boat, basicaly new everything. Not everyone has to be as crazy as me though... Kind of sick to put $3000 worth of new sails, line and blocks on a $500 boat. :)
--
Dave Bonin
1981 Nacra 5.2 "Lucile"
1986 Nacra 5.7 "Belle"
Winnipeg, Manitoba, Canada
-- -
- Rank: Lubber
- Registered: Aug 22, 2010
- Last visit: Jul 31, 2011
- Posts: 9
Posted: May 17, 2011 - 06:30 PM
I just spliced up a pair of shrouds and two sets of trap wires. I have a Hobie 18 that's new to me, but I've had a bigger trimaran for many years. I did the synthetic rigging because it's a lot easier to handle, I can make it myself and for a beach cat it's basically cheap. I really want to do it for the big boat, but I have other things to spend my money on and the connection rigging is more difficult because I don't have a rotating mast on the big boat.
Synthetic rigging is very much the norm on bigger boats and splicing 12 strand single braid Dyneema is the easiest splice in the world.
For the trap lines I used a double braid dynema core with a poly coat (3.8mm spiderline to name it by brand). The instructions can be found online at the rope manufacturer sites. I found the double braid instructions at one site confusing but on another site it made easy sense. The double braid on a thimble was more difficult because it can be difficult to sink the splice into the coat but I got it done.
Early on I had some difficulty putting the splice together because I didn't have any small fids. I bought a 2.3mm crochet hook and combined with clear packing tape everything flowed easy. This is now my tiny rope fid.
I have only just put this stuff together and set up the boat last weekend, but I haven't sailed it yet so I have no anecdotal proof. But I used one trap wire from each side to stay the mast while I raised it with the other from each side to raise the mast and nothing failed.
For anecdotal proof of the stuff; I spliced up some 1/4" stuff back in 2005. I used a pair of lines for the adjusters on my cap shrouds. They've been out in the sun and under tension for 5 summers and they have had no problems. Another line is used as the bobstay on my bow pole. It's not out as often, but it has been flawless also. Last summer I spliced up a new halyard, that also has worked fine.
Making the trap wires out of 3.8mm line cause me to have to drill out the trap handles I bought. But they drilled easy and straight with no trouble. I don't know how they will hold up over the years.
Yah, you can make trap wires from synthetic rope relatively easily and the cost is less than wire.
Geoff -
- Rank: Mate
- Registered: Dec 21, 2009
- Last visit: Apr 16, 2013
- Posts: 127
Posted: May 18, 2011 - 07:03 AM
I was "given" my boat so the bottle of water I take sailing technically cost more than my boat.
Thanks for all the great info.
--
Gray Amick
Chapin, SC
'77 NACRA 5.2
-- -
- Rank: Master Chief
- Registered: Jun 20, 2006
- Last visit: May 22, 2024
- Posts: 7089
Posted: May 18, 2011 - 08:31 AM
Trap wires have a habit of rubbing up top & hitting the shrouds. i almost made a mini-pig tail out of steel cables so i could do dynema trap lines.. but in the end it seemed to silly, with no gains, and risks of failure
dynema shrouds will require constant re-tightening... and once a line is used.. it's very hard to re-splice (so you have to be able to adjust somehow...)
Vectran does creep less, but still some... and will require some tightening at some point
HM (high modulus) lines can be cut with a razor (or real sharp knife) and If you leave your cat mast up anywhere... you run some risk that some a-hole will cut your shroud... just to watch the mast fall -
- Rank: Lubber
- Registered: Sep 24, 2010
- Last visit: Jun 21, 2011
- Posts: 20
Posted: May 19, 2011 - 11:06 AM
No recommended places to just send them in for replacement/replication?
I've contacted riggingonly.com about replicating mine, but they said they don't carry the same type of wire for it. I'm thinking about asking them to just use whatever they have that's closest to it, even if I'll loose some flexibility with the different wire.
Edited by aaronhall555 on May 19, 2011 - 12:06 PM.
--
1984 AMF Trac 16, First year of sailing, Central California
-- -
- Rank: Chief
- Registered: Jun 24, 2009
- Last visit: Jun 15, 2023
- Posts: 1555
Posted: May 19, 2011 - 12:10 PM
Lots of choices. For custom rigging I go with Annapolis Performance Sailing every time. Maybe a bit more expensive than premade but they really know what they are doing and the only ones I would trust with vectran or dyneema rigging. Murray's or Salty Dog marine for stock rigging.
Regards,
Dave
--
Dave Bonin
1981 Nacra 5.2 "Lucile"
1986 Nacra 5.7 "Belle"
Winnipeg, Manitoba, Canada
-- -
- Rank: Lubber
- Registered: Aug 22, 2010
- Last visit: Jul 31, 2011
- Posts: 9
Posted: May 19, 2011 - 02:56 PM
I've had very good experience dealing with rigging only. It was for the big boat, but they enabled me to repair my exiting, but broken at the time, headstay foil and furler. They helped me figure out how to fix the foil, were able to supply the parts and informed me how to work the assembly I had never dealt with before. I also had a couple shrouds made up for me over the years on other boats.
Of course for me they're just the next town over from where I moor the boat so it's like the local rigging place. But still I was doing the foil here at home so it was all mail order and phone calls. They're a good outfit.
Geoff -
- Rank: Lubber
- Registered: Sep 24, 2010
- Last visit: Jun 21, 2011
- Posts: 20
Posted: May 19, 2011 - 03:26 PM
Yeah, they so far they have given me the best customer support out of the few places I've contacted. I sent riggingonly.com a detailed email with pictures of my standing rigging and trapeze wires and later talked to them on the phone and they were able to give me a very decent quote for replicating my standing rigging, but stated that he can't source the right wire for my trapeze wires. I've already mailed off my rigging to them a couple of days ago, since I'm in California it takes about 5 business days to get to Massachusetts, while riggingonly did say their turnaround time is usually within a day or two, then another 5 business days to get my rigging back. :)
Wolfman, thanks for the info! I'm sending Annapolis Performance Sailing the same detailed email I sent to riggingonly.com to see how they will quote just for future reference, and if it's within the same price range and they are able to do my trapeze wires I may just have riggingonly send my wires there....
--
1984 AMF Trac 16, First year of sailing, Central California
-- -
- Rank: Chief
- Registered: Jun 24, 2009
- Last visit: Jun 15, 2023
- Posts: 1555
Posted: May 19, 2011 - 04:25 PM
Steve Mazur at APS is the guy to talk to. Top notch in every way!
D.
--
Dave Bonin
1981 Nacra 5.2 "Lucile"
1986 Nacra 5.7 "Belle"
Winnipeg, Manitoba, Canada
-- -
- Rank: Lubber
- Registered: Aug 22, 2010
- Last visit: Jul 31, 2011
- Posts: 9
Posted: May 30, 2011 - 09:10 PM
I wrote here a bit about splicing rigging and trap wires recently. I finally got to put whole thing to a test.
I had some suspicion about initial set, but I could not find any information about what to plan for. All was good when I set up the rig, but after a light to moderate breeze the new shrouds set up tight, well tighter than they had been. In a very short time my rig was horribly loose and making me uncomfortable. I ended up using another piece of line through the shackle at the chain plate and running it through one of the trap lines to tighten up the rig. The trap lines held up fine but this wasn't enough time to evaluate chafe. I may wrap some protection around the upper binding, but the line and splicing held up fine to support the rig.
I measured the shrouds here at home tonight. They both set up 3" longer than they were made, both shrouds measured 20'8". I've marked them back to 20'0"and I will just use a longer lashing line. I hope that gives me plenty of room to adjust.
As for re-splicing the line; I've done one and it was as easy as fresh line. Granted it was close to it, only under tension once.
Anyway, just in case anyone was considering my advise I thought I should communicate my results. The initial set of the 12 strand single braid dynema appears to be 1% to 2% and that makes a big difference in finished length.
Geoff -
- Rank: Chief
- Registered: Jun 24, 2009
- Last visit: Jun 15, 2023
- Posts: 1555
Posted: May 31, 2011 - 03:25 AM
Wow, that is good to know. I have considered switching to line rigging instead of steel. That actually makse sense 1-2% translates into a lot of stretch over 20+ ft. That also explains a question I had as to why the line rigged boats use large cascading tensioners instead of adjusters. I do imagine however that the stretch will slow to a stop after a few sails though (although creep may still be a problem over time).
--
Dave Bonin
1981 Nacra 5.2 "Lucile"
1986 Nacra 5.7 "Belle"
Winnipeg, Manitoba, Canada
--
