Wolfman,
Understand that I DO appreciate all of the advice I have received here. I guess I just got tired of hearing about how I should NOT do the front tramp. Again it is a done deal. It will get done as time permits. Right now I am just gonna enjoy sailing my rig around the lakes and rivers here in Tennessee. I also agree that the standing rigging is important and honestly after seeing some of the prices on Saltydog I may just go that route for simplicities sake. The website said their lines are plastic coated or something and that they use some kinda special swaging for the end pinnings. For the prices of around $150.00 I can get all brand new standing rigging for the boat and that is a bargain compared to the prices for Stainless cabling I have been seeing. My only concern is that their Nacra 5.2 kit would fit my older boat. I am just gonna hafta call them and see when I get ready to do that.
I am right now gonna try to get my hulls refinished in white in prep for the graphics my friend is working on. This will be a slow process probably as I am enjoying the boat and do not really want to take it down until the summer is over and then I will not really be using it too much so it will not be missed. That and we will HOPEFULLY be back down in Florida by then. I cannot wait to run this baby in the intercoastal waterway and out in the ocean. That is gonna be awesome..!! peace
Pete
New guy with recently bought Nacra 5.2!!
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Posted: Aug 10, 2011 - 08:44 AM
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Posted: Aug 10, 2011 - 09:47 AM
Please post pics of the front tramp after and during fabrication.
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Gray Amick
Chapin, SC
'77 NACRA 5.2
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Posted: Aug 10, 2011 - 09:58 AM
Yeah that got a little out of hand, although it really depends on how you take the responses. On the internet nobody knows you're a cat. :)
There are a few boats with effective front tramps. I think what everyone was questioning was if you would ever be able to use it. Truth is, you probably won't be able to use it for anything but storage in heavy winds but I don't think that was your intent. For cruising around the lake with the wife and kids in light winds it should be fine.
Also I'm beginning to feel that not every 5.2 is created equally. I keep hearing about how hard it is to right them, yet I dumped solo last week and I feel that I hardly had to lean out on the righting line to get it to right. Also some appear to be more prone to digging in than others. So each seems to have a personality of its own, who the heck knows...
The one thing the 5.2 could use is more storage space on the tramp, so there are definitely some interested people...
Enough said.
D.
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Dave Bonin
1981 Nacra 5.2 "Lucile"
1986 Nacra 5.7 "Belle"
Winnipeg, Manitoba, Canada
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Posted: Aug 10, 2011 - 10:28 AM
Gray,
I will definitely take pics and I am still in the planning stages. It should be cool tho. I feel like it would be a real benefit for the boat. I am not sure about what to use as far as size for the front beam just yet but I am working on that. It always helps to have friends who are engineers!! The fellow I am making these recumbent bikes for seemed very interested in the boat and the project as well. I am hoping I can get my other friend to do some of the graphics for me for cheap or free if I let him put some advertisement on the boat. Gotta see how we can come up with something cool yet subtle...
Wolfman,
I agree on the differing views of the 5.2. For instance the forward flotation on mine as I said seems to be pretty great. Again I have only had it in high winds that day of the storm and then we were in survival mode so I am not sure about that just yet but right now in medium to low winds it performs very well and the hulls seem to just slice thru the waves with ease and the only time I have seen the tips come even close to going under was when a very large Yacht powered across our track and left a mammoth wake for us to deal with. Honestly it was pretty easy to deal with and that kinda surprised me coming from a mostly powerboat background where you gotta slow down quite a bit to avoid that hammering you get from large wakes like that. The nacra bobbed a bit but for the most part just cut thru and kept going. Honestly it seems like very small close together wakes seem to make more commotion for the boat. It kinda makes the mast and boom shake back and forth quite a bit especially if there is little wind....
I hope to get back out on the boat again soon and see how my sideloaders and my trap bungees perform. The wind looks pretty good today and my wife is off but the kids are back in school and she has to work this weekend. I wish I could right that mast myself because I would take it out solo but it is a bear really even with my new mast raising setup with the trailer winch. There is just no good way to control it until it is most of the way up and the stanchions are not loose anymore. I thought about some kinda lines to the sides of the main beam temporarily up there until the mast is raised but I am afraid to try it. That and the damn anti-rotator pungee stick is a problem until the mast is a ways up. Besides I cannot crank it and steady the mast at the same time anyways.... How do you do it solo? Peace
Pete -
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Posted: Aug 10, 2011 - 02:59 PM
Yeah, when you are out in a day with big waves and are taking them at an angle the front will likely dig more than you have seen. Taking them head on, the hull shape works really well. You should see the newer F18s with the swept back bows cut through waves, very impressive! With the 5.2 it depends a lot on the 'sea state' and the direction of the waves with respect to the boat.
Solo mast raising. Now you have opened a can of worms!;) It is not easy. For cranking you need a 'Gin Pole'
setup to get enough leverage in the right direction. This is just a 8-10' pole with a pully over the top mounded on the trailor near the front beam that redirects your force for you. You attache 2 trap line to the front beam temporarily to stop side sway and a bungee to the mast rotator to the front beam so it stays rotated. If you have a double trap you can use one of the other trap lines to raise with. Otherwise you have to make sure your bows are pointed downhill, raise using the forestay and temporarily brace the mast while you get the forestay down from the pole to attach it.
Or you can do the heave ho method. Get a 10 ft step ladder. Connect the bridles together using a bow shackle and with a single block on them. Put a v cleat about waist high on the mast (3-4 ft from the bottom). Run a line from the forestay, throught the block on the bridles and back through the v cleat on the mast. Put the ladder near the rear beam. Put the mast on the step and heave it up in the rotated position until you can rest it on the ladder. THis gives you a rest point to get up on the tramp. Tighten the line on the forestay-bridle- cleat connection. Heave the mast up the rest of the way. At the top you should be able to hold it with one hand. Tighten the cleat again so it won't move when you get down from the tramp. Tie off the mast to the trailor tongue using one of the trap lines so that you can remove the forestay line, pulley etc and properly install the forestay, bridles and pin adjuster.
Either way it's kind of like patting your head and rubbing your stomach while chewing gum at the same time.
You need to get it straight in your head before you do it.
Or you can get the Mast Stepper III which does it all for you.
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Dave Bonin
1981 Nacra 5.2 "Lucile"
1986 Nacra 5.7 "Belle"
Winnipeg, Manitoba, Canada
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Posted: Aug 10, 2011 - 03:43 PM
I think most of the friction on this thread is caused by:
- You asked for ideas on a 5.2 tramp but no one has built or seen one.
- Written communication can be harder than face to face.
- The 5.2 really does have lower volume hulls than similar length cats, hence the skepticism.
- Some folks can't resist input despite never having done the thing.
You've mentioned that you are a fabricator, so fab it! Like you say, if it doesn't work you can remove it. If it does work it will be very cool!
Lots of variables, total crew weight is big, but also water surface, what might work out in a lake might not work as well in open water. It might help if you can build up the new front beam higher than the hull decks to avoid having it constantly plow through the water. The Getaway tramp that was mistaken for a 5.2 and started the front tramp discussion is level with the decks, but go look at a Getaway in person, the hulls are very tall and wide compared to your 5.2.
So please create an album for the project in Beachcats Technical, and document your work as you go, from design to sea trials!
"The proof of the pudding is in the eating."
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Damon Linkous
1992 Hobie 18
Memphis, TN
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Posted: Aug 10, 2011 - 05:21 PM
Guys,
Right now I have been doing the mast thing this way....
First I get the mast off the trailer and move it back to where it is at least near the little ball and socket setup. Then I hook the port and starboard Stanchion cables up on like the second pin from the top. Next I pay the trap lines and the rest of the sagging lines out the back of the trailer on the ground. Next I take the winch line for the trailer off the boat and I put it thru the pulley and bracket I machined at the top of the trailer vertical that is used to hold the mast up when trailering. Then I take it and put the hook for the boat thru the forestay and start to crank down on the winch. Once the slack is out I go to the back of the boat and my wife goes to the winch and once I get the rear of the mast going up as high as I can lift it she cranks it up and I just steady it on the tramp. It works VERY well this way as long as you are careful and remember that DAMN anti-rotator bar. SO to do it by myself I would need to be able to get it steadied from side to side and then make some kinda pole with a vee in it to hike it up high enough to start cranking it safely. The interesting thing about a pole with a vee in it is that if you can secure it at the back say in the center of the trailer somehow it could actually kinda fall with the mast as the mast goes up and therefore remain in contact with the mast should something fail possibly saving it from a catastrophic fall. It seems like a person could weld up a sort of vee shaped pivoting arm on some simple hinges that is bolted to the trailer and put a tube down the center of the vee, then put this pole inside the tube. Get behind the trailer and lift the mast as far as you can and then lay it in the cradle of the other padded vee at the top of the pole. This should get you high enough that the stanchion lines will keep things in check until it is fully righted. It would then be a simple matter of pulling the forstay cable off the winch cable and connect it to the bridle. Of course talking with Golfdad I know now that I should not be removing the stanchion cables after every trip and I should have the bungees attatched to the trap cables all the time. Once we take the boat out this time I plan to get the trap cables bungeed properly with my new setups here and the only reason I have not already is because I do not know how long to make them until the mast is erected..
Damon,
I think you are right on about the tramp both in the reasons the thread went bad as well as the idea that the new forward beam should be higher than the hulls. I have been looking at the boat and taking measurements for this a lot lately especially since this conversation started and my plan has ALWAYS been for the new front beam to be atop the hulls and as I said tig welded to some aluminum plates attatched to the tops of the hulls. Now it would be a simple matter to raise the beam atop some standoffs but there is the issue of the weight pulling it towards the back of the boat wanting to lever and tear the plates out of the hull face. I think that I will probably end up using some extruded aluminum beams for the new front beam and tig weld it to some CNC machined arrowhead shaped plates that I will SOMEHOW attatch to the hulls. The beam will be towards the back of the arrowheads and the arrowheads will be behind the non-slip tread on the top of the hull. If you look at the boat and take a tape measure and place it against the main beam where the mast attaches it the new beam will be basically four feet from that point. It will be ninety inches wide at that point and will span the width of the non-skid section of the top of the hulls. That makes for a four foot wide by the width of the hull useable space and you still have more than fifty inches of hull out in front of that.... If your hulls are going underwater more than that on a trip you are about to pitchpole pretty badly I think.... Again, I think that this additional space would make for a GREAT place for the kids to ride and the coolers and other junk that should not be on the trampoline. I think I will make the attatchment plates from 1/4 or 5/16 thick /aluminum plate and make them wide and long to acheive maximum attatchment safety. The rest will be relatively simple as I said with probably some eyelets and a rod to attatch the back end of the tramp to the main beam or perhaps if I can get this trampoline material sewn up with some webbing loops I will just use some chord to tighten the tramp much like the main tramp. I really do not see why this would not work and make for a little more usable boat. Even in rough weather it is far enough back to not be a concern I would think. this is even back behind where the bridles attach to the hulls by quite a bit. I know the hulls slice and bury out in the ocean quite a bit but I have not seen any video where the hulls submerged that much unless the boat was about to pitchpole... Does this still sound like a hairbrained idea? I sure can see my kids sitting in that four foot area in front of the mast enjoying the ride already.... haha
I was looking at the getaway boat a bit today when I ate my lunch on youtube and the tramp on that boat actually attatches to a front beam way up at the bow of the boat that actually pierces both hulls down below the top of the hulls. I can see why you say that the getaway's hulls are much taller and wider than the Nacra's then. It would have to be to keep any excess weight from burying the bow all the time. I have also seen video of two adult girls riding up there (looking good too I might add) and it was out in the ocean on a mild day. No problems at all. Mine will be WAY back from where that boat's front beam is and considerably higher up in the hull too...
Anyways, I cannot wait to see today's footage of the America's Cup. My wife and I have been watching it on youtube all day and she said she did not like the America's cup because it was boring before but now that the Cat's are playing and they KINDA sorta look like our boat (NOT!!) she all of a sudden is yelling at the screen and cheering on the American teams. It is kinda cool really to see how the big boys play and what a state of the art cat looks like. I love the wings for mainsails and how they can be articulated like that. It does seem tho that they have trouble keeping it under control. When the hulls start to fly on that time trial they seemed to always let out too much air with them and then they are back on both hulls dragging water. Of course it is not as simple as all that but I did notice most of the boats seemed to exhibit the same problems. Is there two grinders for the main and one is the rearward and one is the pivot? It is hard to tell. I also noticed that the faster boats seemed to have a different grinder setup than the slower ones did. I am not sure I am even using the right terms here but when I say grinders I am talking about the little man powered capstans they are always constantly cranking on. Also what is the reasoning for the reversed curve of the tips of the hulls? It seems like the angle of the cut would actually make the hulls want to bury instead of float despite their knife edge side profile. I am sure there is tons of hours of aquadynamic research into those hulls but they sure seem to be backwards. They look cool as hell tho... That Cat racing sure looks like a lot of fun and very challenging.....Maybe I will get better at sailing this dinghy of mine and chase down some other cats out on the lake if I see em'....haha Peace
Pete -
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Posted: Aug 10, 2011 - 06:30 PM
Your "Stanchion cables" = shrouds
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Damon Linkous
1992 Hobie 18
Memphis, TN
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Posted: Aug 10, 2011 - 06:31 PM
Cool man, thanks for the tip.... -
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Posted: Aug 10, 2011 - 11:37 PM
When winching your mast up attach the winch to one of your rear trap lines instead of your forstay. That way once you have it winched all the way up the mast is secure while you attach the forestay. Once the forestay is attached return the trap line to it's original position.
Use a rear once because you want to attach the 2 front one as close to the outside edge of your from beam so you can to control sway from side to side. I know some have said to bungee but I think bungee is a bad idea with to much give. I actually use a piece of tie down strapping cut from one of my tie downs on each side. When the mast is up I use these to pull the traps forward to the beam(I also leave them connected to their shock cord). Do not make them to tight they just need to provide a little deterrent from moving side to side. When the mast is down I leave these in place so the length is the same when I put the mast up. I only take them off after the mast is up and ready to sail and put them back on before dropping the mast for trailering.
For your V take 2 8 10 ft Black ABS pipe Drill a hole through both at the same point about a foot or so from one end and put a long bolt through both creating a hinge between the 2. Connect a small rope between the bottom ends as a preventer to keep them from opening very far. Notch your mast in the V made by the top and push the mast up till on a good angle for the winch to get it. As the mast goes up it will fall so make sure no one is in the way or else you could connect a 3rd shorter piece with a hinge to the other ones and a similar preventer to make a tripod.
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Dustin Finlinson • Magna, UT
Member: Utah Sailing Association
1982 Prindle 18
1986 Hobie 17
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