Rudders on my P 18 yesterday -- seems like a perpetual problem, i have tried all the usual stuff, new rudders, worked on the locking cam bolt, new teflon half moon gizzy, and still could not keep them down. Maybe i need new springs ? Even when they were down in 15 knots there is way too much effort to control the tiller -- Does anyone have any thoughts on HOW to improve this problem ? how about switching the whole thing out to Hobie Style Rudders ? thanks from the
Painless Bonecutter in Hilton Head, SC
Prindle 18 Rudders
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Posted: Sep 05, 2011 - 02:45 AM
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Posted: Sep 05, 2011 - 07:59 AM
Bonecutter, can empathize with you, took me a while to tune my rudders in. You have replaced almost everything so all that is needed is fine tuning, so here's how....
The locking bolt on the rudder latches onto the locking pin on the rudder casting, the force of the lockdown can be adjusted at the lockbolt by screwing it in or out, loosen off either nut and screw the bolt out, this will increase the force of lockdown. Do this with P18 on trailer untill satisfied with lockdown force, test by standing at rear of cat, grab rudder and pull untill rudder "breaks" free, if you want to get really technical you can use hang scale to set force. When the rudders are not locked down when sailing the force on the rudders will increase dramatically (weather helm). When I go sailing, I always make sure my rudders are locked down before I take off, makes all the difference between a great day sailing or a crappy day.
If you pull on the rudder "up" line, you will notice that this lifts the lockdown pin on the casting, sometimes you have to grab both up and down lines at the same time, gently pull on the up line (which will lift the pin slightly) and at the same time pull hard on the down line, this will help with the lockdown. It helps to just sit on the ground at the rudders, and pivot the rudders up and down while adjusting the lockdown bolt, this enables you to view the angle of the bolt onto the pin, and you can adjust both lockdown force and breakaway force. If the lockbolt is adjusted too far out, the lockbolt will hit the lockpin directly and stop there, it must hit the lockpin slightly off-center, lifting the pin and sliding past, the pin drops down behind the bolt head and latches. Which reminds me, check that the head of the lockdown bolt is at the correct angle, there is a notch cut out of the lockbolt, the lockpin drops into that notch to latch, it must face directly up.
Keep us posted
Turbo
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TurboHobo
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Posted: Sep 05, 2011 - 09:14 AM
thanks for the quick reply . i did not realize adjusting the bolt will change the lockdown force. that may be my problem. i will check that today . -
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Posted: Sep 05, 2011 - 09:55 AM
bonecutter i feel your pain...the single best thing you can do to your prindle is tune the rudders and adjust the mast rake. first get the slop out of them then refer to the manual pages 8-10 starting with the section rudder blades. follow these instructions to the letter. then go to page 41 and read tuning for performance-mast rake. mast rake and rudder rake work together to balance/adjust the helm. start at the factory settings for these and adjust to your preference after sailing her. if the rudders still won't stay down, the lockdown bolts or springs or both are worn out. think of it as being a mechanic and adjusting the valves on the head...start with the factory numbers so you know where they are supposed to be, then tweek for your preference. good luck!...if you don't have a manual, there is one here on this site.
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bill harris
hattiesburg, mississippi
prindle 16- "BLUE RIBBON"
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Posted: Sep 06, 2011 - 02:53 PM
I know what ya mean just when I think i have mine all wrapped up it happens again. Mine are good most of the time but every once in a while or in rally heavy wind they like to pop on me. I had to clear a lot of reeds out of them last weekend. I had 6 ft tendrils trailing me.
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Dustin Finlinson • Magna, UT
Member: Utah Sailing Association
1982 Prindle 18
1986 Hobie 17
1982 Prindle 16
1980 Prindle 16(mostly)
1976 Prindle 16(mostly)
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Posted: Sep 07, 2011 - 01:45 PM
I spent a summer on these rudders and finally got the non-locking rudder to stay down. After lots of part swaps, I spent a couple hours just looking at it work. Up and down. I could see the pin was not fully engaging the bolt notch, but to solve this we would have to notch out the casting a bit further (very invasive) or try jungle options. First I bent a bolt as much as I could and still get the nut on, that worked a bit better but not much. Then I threw that out and added a sleeve around the pin (just a bit more diameter), and that worked like a charm. Prior, I changed out every part there was to no avail. Seems like the rudder drill hole on this one was just a smidgen off, or the casting, or the pin and thats all it takes to make a P rudder not so fun.
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H18, H17, P19, Glastron GT-150 (Bond jump boat)
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Posted: Sep 07, 2011 - 04:35 PM
i made my own lock down bolts and custom fitted them with a flat file and round file...couldn't justify spending $30 each on a .40c carriage bolt. rudders have not kicked up since...even if i run over a crab trap. they will release when i hit ground though. put new 1/4" bolts and locknuts/washers everywhere.
Edited by coastrat on Sep 07, 2011 - 04:39 PM.
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bill harris
hattiesburg, mississippi
prindle 16- "BLUE RIBBON"
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Posted: Sep 11, 2011 - 11:24 PM
Look at the bolt that the lock bolt attaches to. The bolt that is through the rudder casting and the one going through the top of the spring. This bolt will wear and bend and not match up to the locking bolt on the rudder. Also if you are using 1/4 inch line the line is too thick fot it to lock in place. Hope it helps. -
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Posted: Sep 14, 2011 - 10:39 AM
I've replaced the rudder control lines with the largest "Spyderline" 4.8mm around 3/16" but not sure if I have them routed right or not, it pulls aweful hard to raise the rudders and they still don't want to raise. I've also replaced all new parts, bolts, sheves, spacers and all. Does anyone have photos of how the lines are routed? -
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Posted: Sep 14, 2011 - 11:04 AM
If the rudders are lock all the way down it will take good long hard pull to release and pull them all the way up. No easy assisted pop up on these things. :( I usually do not pull them up til they have already popped partway up when I come in but on some lakes I can have the bow touching shore and still have rudders in full lock down and 2 steps behind that I am floating in my PFD. So i those case I sometimes have to pull them up all the way and it takes effort for sure. Sometimes I will even give them a kick from the front with the bottom of my foot to unlock em in those cases then just lift em lock em.
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Dustin Finlinson • Magna, UT
Member: Utah Sailing Association
1982 Prindle 18
1986 Hobie 17
1982 Prindle 16
1980 Prindle 16(mostly)
1976 Prindle 16(mostly)
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Posted: Oct 17, 2011 - 12:52 AM
Bozo,
There is a copy of the Prindle manual here:
http://www.thebeachcats.com/pictures/?g2_itemId=75669
There are photos of how the lines should be run within the casings. The amount of squeeze you put on the rudder by tightening the pivot bolt in the casting makes a huge difference on how hard you have to pull to release the rudder. An eighth of a turn on the bold is significant. Experiment to see at what tightness the bolt starts to restrict movement and stop there. I have used some flat round soft plastic disks from Murray's to go between the rudder and the casting with some success.
Sheet In!
Bob
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Sheet In!
Bob
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Prindle 18-2 #244 "Wakizashi"
Prindle 16 #3690 "Pegasus" Sold (sigh)
AZ Multihull Fleet 42 member
(Way) Past Commodore of Prindle Fleet 14
Arizona, USA
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Posted: Oct 17, 2011 - 05:59 PM
On this thread there are pics of how to run your rudder up and downhaul lines:
http://thebeachcats.com/forums/viewtopic/topic/11643
My rudders lock so tight, I can't pull them up with the rope. I crash into the beach to pop them, or I get in the water and pull them up by hand. -
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Posted: Nov 15, 2011 - 05:15 PM
Coastrat,
You ground down locking bolt heads from a stainless steel carriage bolt?
Did you have to cool it during the process to keep it from getting brittle?
You so rock!
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Sheet In!
Bob
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Prindle 18-2 #244 "Wakizashi"
Prindle 16 #3690 "Pegasus" Sold (sigh)
AZ Multihull Fleet 42 member
(Way) Past Commodore of Prindle Fleet 14
Arizona, USA
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Posted: Nov 15, 2011 - 06:58 PM
With the prindle rudder system remember that you can easily compress the spring by pulling both lines at the same time. No one ever told me this, but after a season of tweaking them I figured it out, and with that in mind, it is very easy to lock and unlock very tight prindle rudders by pulling both lines first, then letting the correct line 'win' with tension.
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Rob
OKC
Pile of Nacra parts..
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Posted: Nov 15, 2011 - 07:00 PM
Oh...I obviously didn't read first. Like turboho said. Pull both lines first.
A dremel goes through SS bolts very easily, fwiw.
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Rob
OKC
Pile of Nacra parts..
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Posted: Nov 15, 2011 - 08:33 PM
Nice tip Yurdle! -
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Posted: Nov 16, 2011 - 09:19 AM
Yurdle,
Do you use the composite cutting wheel on SS or something else?
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Bob
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Prindle 18-2 #244 "Wakizashi"
Prindle 16 #3690 "Pegasus" Sold (sigh)
AZ Multihull Fleet 42 member
(Way) Past Commodore of Prindle Fleet 14
Arizona, USA
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Posted: Nov 16, 2011 - 02:42 PM
klozhald, i used a composite wheel on a 4" angle grinder with ss carriage bolts, didn't cool it...worked fine.
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bill harris
hattiesburg, mississippi
prindle 16- "BLUE RIBBON"
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Posted: Nov 18, 2011 - 12:02 PM
I've only done it a couple times, and I don't know the exact part number, but it's one of the 'cut-off wheels' ~1" in diameter.
Obviously the biggest issue with SS is always heat. Just don't let it get hot and you shouldn't have any issues.
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Rob
OKC
Pile of Nacra parts..
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Posted: Nov 19, 2011 - 11:17 AM
Another important adjustment is to make sure the rudders are tracking true and straight. With the rudders locked down in sailing position, measure the distance with a tape measure (normally takes two people) between the front edges and trailing edges. These distances should be pretty close to the same. The tiller crossbar has one end threaded to adjust this distance to true the tracking.
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