If you are the last one on the boat and its blowing away from the other crew faster than they can swim turtle the boat. Let the crew recover then fix the inverted capsize together.
He was very lucky the girl didn't come home in a body bag if it hadn't been for Seatow.
hobie capsize over and over and over
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Posted: May 08, 2012 - 08:41 PM
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Posted: May 08, 2012 - 09:00 PM
Daniel, thanks for pointing that out. When I was watching the video I thought, "Why's he getting in position to right the boat when his crew is tied up by one leg, head under water?!" Duh. He was buying her time.
So here's a question for everyone: Specifically, what would you do differently? (Aside from staying on the beach, that is.) In terms of gear on the boat, sailing techniques on the water, MOB techniques, etc., what would you do?
I'm not trying to belabor a point. I really do want to know. Here's why: The Alenuihaha Channel is about fifteen miles north of where I'll be putting in. Winds in the channel regularly get above 35 knots. No, I have absolutely no desire to sail there. But I've been kiting all over this island for years. Some days the wind behaves itself. Other days the wind shifts, and the channel winds can take as much as a 45 degree dip southward. It's entirely possible to go from gentle 5kt onshores to screaming 35kt offshores. I hate facing a known risk without a plan. As several people have pointed out, had the crew not been rescued, that could've turned out much much worse. Rescues here are no more of a guarantee than they are in Florida. If I can do a little planning now (whistles for all, brightly colored caps, inflatable tubes, knife belt, regular MOB drills, etc.) I'm all for it.
Tom
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Tom Benedict
Island of Hawaii
P-Cat 18 / Sail# 361 / HA 7633 H / "Smilodon"
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Posted: May 08, 2012 - 10:03 PM
Bethwaite trapeze hooks (ball & socket) Pete -
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Posted: May 08, 2012 - 10:07 PM
I'll bite...
What would I do differently?
1) I would make sure I had a chance to practice in that sort of breeze with a "safety net" at hand. Benedict, I suggest you find somebody who has a motor boat to go out with you in some of those screaming winds so you can learn the particulars of your boat with help close by just in case. That way when you do get caught in it, you won't be surprised by how different sailing is in a blow. And don't let your motor boat friend help you when you have the slightest problem, he's there in case of a genuine emergency, not just to help you right the boat because you're rather tired. One of the things you have to learn to do is rest.
2) MOB techniques: Again, practice is the key. Every time I go out, I find some flotsam in the water to pick up. Rescuing an inanimate object is harder than rescuing a person who can swim toward the boat, and as a bonus I now have several hats. Can't find any flotsam? Lucky you! Try using some of your own jetsam instead. I used to take my daughter out when she was 5. We had an orange foam ball. She would throw the ball in the water, and it was her job to keep an eye on it while I sailed away, then came back to pick it up.
3) I noticed in the video when the crew was in the water, her life vest was riding up, practically covering her face. I see this kind of problem a lot. The vest isn't comfortable so people will loosen up the straps, then when they hit the water, the vest causes more problems than it cures. Tighten up that vest! Make sure it won't ride up on you.
4) Equipment failures are serious. While watching the video, long before the first capsize, I saw that the crew was having trouble with her trap line (1:35 or so,) and the leeward rudder was kicking up (3:30.) These problems came to haunt the boat later. If I notice something isn't right about the boat or my crew, even if I'm in a race, I will heave to or go to shore right away and fix it. This isn't always an easy thing to do, there is a powerful urge to just muddle on. Just don't.
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Daniel T.
Taipan F16 - USA 213
Clearwater, FL
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Posted: May 09, 2012 - 08:03 AM
Some feel that a part of racing is pushing yourself into sailing in conditions you normally wouldn't... and that is a small part of why i don't race very often. When i used to snow ski... rule #1 was never ski out of control or in conditions you can't handle.... i feel the same rules apply here.
I would have made sure my crew was free the second i saw they needed assistance. I would have been yelling at my crew too... (DONT LET GO OF THE LINES once you are free)
after the crew was free.. i would have made sure the sheets were uncleated, and the tiller cross bar was in the correct place
I would have faced my cat into the wind... that would have made the situation so much more manageable and prevented the boat from taking off like a rocket once righted
after the 2nd or 4th capsize, i would have fixed my jib so i could sail to weather (it was wrapped up)
i can't really tell, but it doesn't look all that downhauled either.. i would have surely down and outhauled the snot out of that sail
not 100% sure about how H16's should be sailed in these conditions, but i would probably not double trap and let the crew sit behind me (they were both getting T-bagged a few times). the skipper was so far back, that he was holding the tiller above the rudders and I could easily believe he actually unlocked his rudders from that angle.
Edited by MN3 on May 09, 2012 - 08:26 AM. -
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Posted: May 09, 2012 - 08:33 AM
Don't most 16s have reef points as well?
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Rob
OKC
Pile of Nacra parts..
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Posted: May 09, 2012 - 08:44 AM
no, those were ended with the comp tip
i know they were moving very fast, but those conditions didn't look like they warrented double trapping and reefing.. but hard to really tell from my desk -
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Posted: May 09, 2012 - 08:46 AM
Anyone else notice the number of the sail? 5105:
CA Police code for crazy one on the loose. Danger to property, danger to others, and danger to themselves... -
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Posted: May 09, 2012 - 08:50 AM
His sail doesn't have reef points, and his jib is fully battened. Once the jib got wrapped around the forestay, the only way to unwrap it would have been to go downwind, and jibe around. However, that would have put him even further from his sister (who was still within sight at the time,) and every time he tried to turn down wind, he pitch polled.
After righting the first time, when his crew was in the water, heaving to might have helped depending on how much leeway he would have made, maybe his sister could have caught up to the boat, or maybe getting back in the water and holding the bow into the wind while using himself as a sea anchor. I'm not so sure about these ideas though.
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Daniel T.
Taipan F16 - USA 213
Clearwater, FL
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Posted: May 09, 2012 - 09:37 AM
a hobie 16 is a wild ride on days like that, you have to know your stuff to stay upright. now a p-16 is way better suited for that kind of blow, especialy if your fat!
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bill harris
hattiesburg, mississippi
prindle 16- "BLUE RIBBON"
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Posted: May 09, 2012 - 02:09 PM
Daniel, thanks for the idea about the motorboat. I do have some friends with putt-putts on their rides, and one at least may be interested in giving this a try.
As for MOB drills, when I had my P-16, we used to do something similar with our throwable flotation. If the weather was good (meaning not too challenging sailing) and the sun was hot, we'd do it with live flotation, too. We got to where everyone who skippered the boat could spot a person in the water, sail to them, and spin the boat around them while the crew hauled them aboard. I'm not planning to try this on the open ocean until I can get some tiller time picking up a throwable float or a foam ball, like you and your daughter did.
As far as pushing yourself as a sailor, I'd far rather do that NOT as part of a race. But I know the temptation to just go for it is there under pressure, especially when racing. Still, that's not my cup of tea. I'm in it to have fun. Part of having fun means getting to go home at the end of the day and get back out on the water the next morning. (But I'll make sure to pass the message along to my kids in case they decide they do want to get into racing!)
Ok, MN3, the other thing you mentioned is how you would've handled seeing your crew upside down, head in the water, and tangled in the sheets. Daniel pointed out that the skipper kept the boat from turtling, which would've made the situation worse. But my gut instinct would've been to help free them, or get their head above water to buy them more time to get loose. Which one is the more prudent course of action?
I'm also glad you mentioned not uncleating the sheets before righting the boat. I thought that's what I saw, that there was tons of mainsheet that could've been let out prior to righting. But I don't know the Hobie so I wasn't sure I read it right. When I had my P-16, we capsized at least once every time we went out. At first it was because we were dumb, inexperienced and didn't know any better. Toward the end it was to give the sails a good rinse at the end of the day. But I'd say we righted that boat over a hundred times. It only took two times leaving the sheets cleated before we learned that lesson. (Why two times? Told you we were dumb!)
The P-Cat main has reef points. Reefing and furling the jib is a good one to add to the regular practice routine, along with MOB drills. Noted.
Daniel, one other thing you mentioned: having the skipper jump back in the water to use himself as a storm anchor to keep the boat in irons. Not sure I'd want to do that, especially in cold water, but do you think there would be any benefit to packing a storm anchor on a boat, tied to the bows via a bridle? Again, this wouldn't be for racing. And I'd want to make quite sure it wouldn't slip overboard accidentally. But in a situation like that it's something that could be tossed in the water to keep the boat in irons. (I'm on the fence on this one... I'd rather sail around and pick up my crew, if possible. Better still, I'd rather convince my crew not to let go of the boat!)
Thanks for the ideas, guys. I really really appreciate this.
Tom
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Tom Benedict
Island of Hawaii
P-Cat 18 / Sail# 361 / HA 7633 H / "Smilodon"
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Posted: May 09, 2012 - 02:28 PM
~~ I lost my best friend in rough weather...... I've learned to RESPECT it and won't go out in a BLOW or "high gusts"
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~ Vietnam Vet 69-71~ 17 Hobie w/big jib, ~18 Hobie mag,~DN Ice sailor,
and other toys.......
~~ I live in NY state on the north shore of Oneida lake in
Bernhards Bay. ~~~~~~
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Posted: May 09, 2012 - 02:47 PM
Tom,
I feel the need to point out that the reason the boat started sailing while on its side (did you notice how the main lifted out of the water?) was precisely because the skipper moved to the back of the boat to try to help his crew. If he had stayed at the bow, the boat wouldn't have gone flying off like it did. If the crew had a trapeze cutting knife (and she should have,) she would have been fine, the skipper should have stayed at the bow. None of this applies if the skipper has reason to believe that the crew is unconscious of course. (Yes, MN3 and I are giving conflicting advice on this point.)
People have a bad habit of grabbing a boat at the shrouds or stern (especially if it is starting to move away from them,) and they think they can just hold it that way. Well, depending on the wind and sail area, even when the mainsheet is running free the boat can exert considerable force. If you want to hold a boat, whether or not you can touch the bottom, you really need to be holding the bow.
As for the sea anchor... I need a righting bag for my boat anyway so I have one onboard.
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Daniel T.
Taipan F16 - USA 213
Clearwater, FL
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Posted: May 09, 2012 - 03:47 PM
This is a scarey video. I have have lost a crew member once but was able to get back to him. It is very important to let anyone on the boat know that if you capsize you must immediately get to the boat and HOLD ON TIGHT. I feel the skipper was almost left without a boat a few times. Whenever I capsize I uncleat the main to lessen the chance of the boat capsizing again when righted and to try to prevent the boat from running away when upright. By standing on the bow or stern you can rotate the tramp out of the wind to slow the boat's speed but in these condtions I doubt that his sister would have been able to get back to the boat as it would have still probably drifted faster than she could have swam to it. Definitely makes me want to do more practice on my "man overboard drills". Agree that anyone on the boat should have a whistle and probably waterproof light or mirror in the lifejacket. I've complained about my Prindle rudders in the past but have found new respect for them after this.
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Scott
ARC 21
Prindle 18
Annapolis, Maryland
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Posted: May 09, 2012 - 04:33 PM
i am no expert (at all) but I am pretty sure i would instinctavly check on my crew.. (alive?, hurt?, tangled?).. and would probably get into that pile of spagetti and untangled her feet. This would not have helped the boat/wind angle, and added the turtle risk... but get your crew safe, then they can help you (is what i THINK i would do)
BUT it sure is easy to say that from my desk... It's otally a matter of crisis managment where every decision can be life or death, or gear, or the race on the water.
All in all, this turned out very well. They lived, boat didn't look damaged, the finished the race i think i saw. and i bet they learned a lot :) -
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Posted: May 10, 2012 - 04:25 AM
I was sailing solo on my 16, on the wire when the boat pitchpoled. I was slung forward and around the mast, the main coming down directly overhead. I was underwater, under the main, still hooked to the trap, and tangled up. Another wire was caught on the hook, blocking the release of the trap wire. I literally had to stop, regroup, and slowly, methodically detangle myself so I would swim out from under the main to get air. It was a very scary moment, I think the outcome might have been different if I had panicked. These boats are dangerously fun which is why I love them. Anything in my life that is this enjoyable involves a certain amount of risk. The issue is to mitigate as much of that risk as possible before leaving the shore.
I don't blame these folks for sailing in these conditions, I've done the same in times past. My only caveat would be to make sure my crew was equally experienced and aware of the risks.
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Karl, Captain of Stayin' Thirsty
2011 Hobie 16SE
Atlanta, GA
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Posted: May 10, 2012 - 01:53 PM
I get the feeling there's no one right answer for how to respond to a crewmate who's tangled and head-under. I'm going to run this video by one of the EMTs I know. Unfortunately I just renewed my certification for emergency medical responder, so I won't have the opportunity to ask my instructor until my renewal comes up again. But this is an interesting scenario! I'd like to know what the better approach is.
Lots and lots of food for thought. Thanks again for all the input.
Tom
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Tom Benedict
Island of Hawaii
P-Cat 18 / Sail# 361 / HA 7633 H / "Smilodon"
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Posted: May 10, 2012 - 09:25 PM
a couple weeks ago we were launching from osyc on a nice and breezy day(20-25kts) and it was just a little chilly. so we wuz doin' a little(lot) of beer drinkin' and contemplating not sailing. there was a nice youngish gent with a totaly cute chick rigging a fancy newish f18...all the bells and whistles and with complete astronaught suits. we struck up chat and and the guy sounded so competent, confident, and mind you, looked all the part. i was going to watch and see how they did before i rigged my boat, but was mainly scoping the cutie. sure enough they launch, tack twice, and then she goes into the drink about 200yrds off of the beach.
the skipper could not get back to her, he barely could control the powerful boat by himself. after a few blown tacks and nearly flipping, he headed for shore and couldn't even sail the boat in. he ended up jumping in the shallow water and with all his might walked the boat in with some help. meanwhile, the hottie was being blown in by the stiff southeast wind. at this time some kids(12-14yrs) rigged up a wave and sailed out(effortlessly) to get her but she had already reached shallow enough water and walked in. no doubt this guy was an experienced sailor(lives in atlanta, so prolly lake sailing mostly), the crew was not(but she was hot, so i understand). i guess the moral of the story is that things can go wrong real fast, they were lucky it happened right in front of the club(except for the embarassing part of the kids coming to her rescue). he lowered the sails on his boat and later took her out on a wave.
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bill harris
hattiesburg, mississippi
prindle 16- "BLUE RIBBON"
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Posted: May 10, 2012 - 10:36 PM
I had quiet the same experience, but on a 15ft dinghy. Strong winds, moderate waves, and a beginner as crew member. Everything OK, until unsuspecting happen, both of us in the water. I always carry an handheld GPS and after checking my crew was OK, I release all the rigs, and I mark the point on the GPS, just in case.... I take time to explain to my crew how we will redress the boat and what he should take care of and do during the maneuver. Well, bad luck, when we redress the boat, the wind blow into the main sail, which rig get stuck (I had release it before) and the boat start almost flying. I manage to step in the boat, and when I was in I realize that my crew was not there, not even close. I saw him around 75 m from the boat. I tell him to stay there, I will go back for him as soon as possible (must say that the temperature of the water is not a problem, we are in the tropics). I arrange the boat for solo sailing, and program my GPS to point to the mark were we fall. At this moment, I couldn't see my crew in the water. I recover him easily, as I had practiced the maneuver a lot of times.
Having a waterproof GPS on hand, was a good idea, mark the point, an other one. Believe me; I don't know why I did it, but in this case I went directly where my crew was, and he was no far from that point and I could see him without a search pattern.
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Patrick DW.
Ciudad del Carmen, Mexico.
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Posted: May 11, 2012 - 12:36 PM
Bill, I think the real moral of the story is if you're a 14 year old with a Wave, practice your MOB drills, learn how to rig fast, and learn how to sail back in as slow as you possibly can!
Patrick, that's a cool trick with the GPS. I can see how that should work every time. If you come back to the waypoint you set and your crew isn't there, sail directly downwind. I'm remembering that one.
Tom
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Tom Benedict
Island of Hawaii
P-Cat 18 / Sail# 361 / HA 7633 H / "Smilodon"
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