Does anyone have any examples to share of how they run their downhaul and rotator lines back to the helm? It seems much easier (and set up by default in some cases) to run them to the crews position, but I sail solo almost exclusively and would like to see how others have run these lines, especially the downhaul, back to the helm for easy access while trapped.
Thanks!
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Rob
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Downhaul/Rotator Lines to Helm
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Posted: May 18, 2012 - 01:30 PM
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Posted: May 19, 2012 - 08:24 AM
This is what I settled on:
I used a couple of broken shock cord hooks each tied to a 30mm block that I can easily (un)hook to my trap handle at will. I couldn't use anything semi-permanently attached, b/c my height when trapped under spin would uncleat the downhaul.
I don't doubt there's a better solution, but having never seen one, this is what I came up with.
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Rob
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Posted: May 21, 2012 - 08:58 AM
Hey Rob,
That's similar to what I have set up, only I have the mast rotation cleat set up aft of the shroud, not the downhaul. If you attach anything to the trap, you want to make sure it is long enough to reach the foot straps when trapped aft down wind with the kite up. It's easy for us to mount the downhaul just about anywhere, based on the conditions and kind of race.
The problem I see with your set up is you will have to reach between the hull block and the cleat to release the downhaul, which is difficult to do single handed from the wire in a blow. Now if that hull block were mounted to a bungee, it would work nice.
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Philip
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Posted: May 21, 2012 - 10:57 AM
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Edited by George1067 on May 21, 2012 - 12:03 PM. -
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Posted: May 21, 2012 - 12:30 PM
Woot, thanks for the response.
I think the pic is a little deceiving. The block on the line is only attached to the white hook -- nothing on the tramp or hull -- with the downhaul running through the block. The downhaul terminates at the 'crew's' trap line shock cord (I don't have the crew trap lines installed) going through the main beam.
I can hook the hook to my trap ring going upwind. I can just leave it on the tramp, or hook to the shroud or something, downwind. The first problem I noticed was that trapped under spin I would uncleat the downhaul due to my height -- and I've never needed to adjust it under spin anyway (I'm new to kites, and not good enough of a sailor to warrant tweaking the main much with the kite up)
Upwind the only limit that having the downhaul block hooked to me imposes is I can't go so far that I hit the connection between downhaul and shock cord, as it won't flow through the block. From my tinkering on land I've only got about a foot of extra play, which I could lose by adjusting one side in and the other out a few times -- I can fix that with a longer line though. The height upwind looks like it won't accidentally uncleat the line, but if it does, it's back to the drawing board.
My goal with this is to play the downhaul when trapped going to weather in gusty conditions (ie 'sailing' in OK.) Playing the main doesn't seem to be necessary (at least playing it more than an arms length) and doesn't work all too well anyway on the I17 in big puffs.
I'm concerned that if I capsize and go flying that I'll break something (on the boat or in me) if I don't have shock cord in the system somewhere to break me lose. The line won't be hooked to me, but if it's hooked to the handle and I don't come out of the handle (seems to only be a concern in peter pan moments) I could hit the end of the downhaul with a lot of velocity... Come to think of it I could attach the block on the downhaul to the hook on the block w/ a short shock cord and that should break easily.
I'm a nubbins and appreciative of any insight. Thanks!
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Rob
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Posted: May 21, 2012 - 01:10 PM
I saw your original post, and scanned through the vid. Is the block on the spin halyard a tack line for a mid pole hoop?
Do you have an inspection port style pocket in your tramp??
I assume yours is the newer F17 -- does that have a narrower beam?
It seems you were saying that VMG is better going as deep as possible vs trapping under spin.
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Rob
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Posted: May 22, 2012 - 12:10 AM
Also, from the pic, the cleat that's close to the hook is a cleat the previous owner installed to hold the spin sheet. It has nothing to do with the downhaul setup in question.
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Rob
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Posted: May 22, 2012 - 06:02 AM
Rob ,
Its not go deep as possible but find that happy place LOL ... Were speed is very good and you are going to your c mark then that = VMG velocity made good, people sail faster and longer all the time, the trick is to find that happy medium ... Also if you can figure out the side of the course that is favored to mark you can make huge gains on people allot of people when racing play follow the leader and don't evaluate or read course ... The problem is people buy faster and more complex boats with out be able to get the full potential out of them .. I see ok sailors all the time step up to bigger faster boats, they sail a little faster beam reaching but they don't even come close to boats full potential around course . In turn when your racing Portsmouth number as I do you are then sailing slower .. If you have the video link you can see my boat is pretty balanced I was doing 15 to 17 knots down wind 8 to 12 upwind on gps .. The block is for mid pole snuffer and beam F and i 17 are the same ... ..If you did read my original post then you will see what I am talking about .. I deleted the post only cause I did not want to have a battle of sailing whits lol ...If I can be of any help to please feel free to email me at funforsail1067@yahoo.com ... Just a fyi all those videos are not the same they are from 4 separate races .. Hard to tell because of the consistency of how my boat is rigged, tuned and sailed ,it almost looks like you are watching same video over and over ... Also what works for two handed boat doesn't always work well for A single handed boat ..... Again I any questions I can help you with feel free to drop me a line .. I have a little knowledge to share been at this for over 32 years ... I do like your progression of boats to a very nice single handed no crew needed and no excuses to be made boat ...
George
Edited by George1067 on May 22, 2012 - 06:11 AM. -
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Posted: May 22, 2012 - 11:26 AM
With the kite, I'm fine not playing the rotator much if at all. The shape of the main doesn't change a whole lot, so I don't see the rotation needing to change a whole lot. It's also a pain in the butt to deal with where it is (hence the post) so I don't touch it much other than to recleat it seemingly constantly.
I probably should run it back to those cleats I've got for the spin sheet, though.
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Rob
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Posted: May 22, 2012 - 12:03 PM
Hah! George, I think you said sail more futz less at some point, but in your 30007 vid you adjust the diamonds on the water. Liar!
That's a neat vid, though. Nice to see the I20? in the background. She starts to gain on you with the kites up, then seems to lose a little on that first tack after the buoy.
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Rob
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Posted: May 23, 2012 - 07:12 AM
Well now Rob,
were talking between races .. LOL you didn't ask that question and I said when sailing .. Like I said early diamond tension is very important get a loose gauge to measure tension .. I have tension setting for wind or you can find them on line .. I checked that link for beam .. Problem with F and inter there were allot of variations made from country to country great marketing from NACRA lol .. Were I sail we have 4 inters and 2 F every thing is the same ... The original inters had a shorter mast like 28 feet and then went to 31 ... There is a inter made out of Australia that was lighter as well .. I am all most positive all the boats in the US market are 8 "6 . Nacra Europe is no longer producing F 17 and I 20 any more but Nacra Australia is I am pretty sure .. They difference in the US between I and F from what I am told from Nacra is nothing I spoke to Eliot Paterson sail makers and they confirmed that .. Trust me if there was anything different about my boat the people I race against would find it lol .. Nacra was trying to make a Formula 17 class for other manufactures to race in but it never got off the ground, hence the F designation so was Hobie with Fx1 to bad that never developed .. The latest F 's have aluminum mast to keep cost down on the boats, with aluminium mast have a bigger class legal main sail.. From what I read in test, there is no difference between the two .. Don't brake carbon mast I hear really hard to find, people end up switching to aluminum from what I have read to replace it .. Its to bad that the boat didn't ketch on, I have had over 15 cats in my life and this is by far the most fun sailing boat I have had !!! Sorry to say class is dead in US that why I have to Portsmouth # race ..It is fun beating up on F18's and I 20's boat for boat ... Were do you sail out of Rob ??
I do really like that you did notice me messing with diamond tension ..No one else got that ... Including people I race against ... -
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Posted: May 23, 2012 - 04:32 PM
I understand the effects of diamond tension, but I have absolutely no point of reference to know which way would benefit me if they're not already set correctly. I don't feel like I'd gain a 'feel' for the adjustment either, until I've gotten used to all the other adjustments and what to expect from them. So anyway, tweaking my diamond wires will have to wait.
Interesting that they're all 8.5' beam..I thought the newer ones were narrower.
I've got the carbon stick -- I tried to insure it separately but Progressive wouldn't let me.
I sail in OKC, hence the 'OKC, OK' in my sig. ;)
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Rob
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Posted: May 23, 2012 - 07:32 PM
Rob
To get down haul to work really well wen wind picks up diamond tension is important , You can get a Loose gauge for about $80.. on ebay .. I am able to sail in high winds very well wen adjusted properly .. It is very simple .. Very important to flatten or make sail fuller flatter heavier air fuller light .. I send you line on mast rake setting etc from Bob Curry who was North East t Champ .
Sorry about the plagerism Bob, but I do get asked for this all the time...
Tuning: NACRA F17 SW
Nacra F17 Aluminum Mast Tuning Guide. Effective date: June 20, 2008
The information provided comes directly from months of testing and sailing.
By Bob Curry, 2004 2007 NACRA F17 North American Champion
Rudder Alignment
Rudder alignment should be set to 1/32”to no more than 1/8” toe in. With rudders down and
locked, measure fore & aft on the rudder, 12” down from the bottom of the lower castingand
level with the bottom of the stern. The tiller arm to cross bar space should be equal on both
starboard & port sides before tightening the set screws.
Daggerboard/Rudder Tuning
Careful tuning of the daggerboards and rudders is important to prevent cavitation. Rounding of
the leading edge seems to be more important than getting the trailing edge sharp. For the trailing
edge, thinning of the foil from about 1” forward to an edge about 1/16” thick seems to work best.
Daggerboards:
Upwind:
- Skipper sitting on the side> Boards totally down.
- Skipper hiking almost on trapeze > Boards totally down.
- Skipper on trapeze > Boards totally down.
- Skipper on trapeze and full cunningham > Raise the boards 6.0” up above the deck.
Downwind:
-Always raise the leeward board about 12.0” up above the deck and the weather board all the way
leaving just enough board down to fill the trunk below the hull.
-Mast rotation always fully opened/released and enjoy the ride!
Rudder-rake/angle:
You turn the adjustable eye that is screwed into the lower rudder casting 1 ¼” out. You measure
between the black rudder case to the center of the adjustable eye. This is a good starting point for
most skippers.
Mast Set-up
Spreader-angle:
With 175 lbs on board, recommend that you use 2 ¼” of spreader rake.
With 187 lbs on board, recommend that you use 2.0” of spreader rake.
With 198 lbs on board, recommend that you use 1 ¾” of spreader rake.
With 210 lbs and above on board, recommend that you use 1 ½” of spreader rake.
Measure between the mast-track and diamond wires. Place a sail batten from wire
to wire and measure the distance. It is recommended not to use less than 1 ½” spreader sweep.
Diamond tension:
To measure the tension of the diamond wires, use a Loose & Co tension gauge which
you put onto the wire and let go. (the expensive one with the two wheels)
This one gives you the most accurate readings. The numbers that work on this tension meter are:
34-38, until 15 knots
38-41, from 15 to 25 knots
41-43, from 25 plus
The aluminum mast is very stiff fore/aft and flexible sideways.
Mast Rotation:
- Skipper sitting on the side= mast rotator pointing at middle of daggerboard case.
- Skipper hiking almost on trapeze= mast rotator pointing at end of daggerboard case.
- Skipper on trapeze= mast rotator pointing in the middle between rear beam and
daggerboard case.
- Skipper on trapeze and full cunningham= mast rotator pointing at intersection of
rear beam and outside of the hull. Lighter skippers will not have this rotation so far back. Move
the rotation forward to open the top section of the sail
Rig Set-up
The NACRA F17 seems to like a tight rig and theboat performs better with the tight shrouds.
Too tight and the mast won’t rotate downwind!
Mast Rake
Basic setting for now is the upper screw of the rudder spring on the transom. Or with a rudder
attached to the boat and in the kicked up position, 15-20” behind the transom measured on the top
of the trailing edge.
To measure, you take your trapeze line and find the intersection of the front of the bridle tang and
the hull. You swing the trapeze line to the back and hold it against the transom or trailing edge of
the rudder to see where it touches.
Have a great sailing season!
Bob Curry
sailbobcat@aol.com
