i am looking for rudders for my cat to have a second pair, do any of you know where i can look for this at? if you have any links? My boat wants to dive down away from the wind when things get moving fast...that is LEE helm...and the fastest way to fix lee helm is to rake the mast BACK right? Moving a notch or two. and leave the rudders right as they are.. ....Moving the tip of the mast back moves the entire center of effort of the whole sail plan back and thus tends to drive the stern away from the wind and the bow of the boat up into the wind, which should then make the boat want to round up in puffs instead of diving. So what do you guys think of this?
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1980 Reynolds 21 Catamaran #38
1988 Farrier 27 # 31
2002 Hobie Getaway
Pennsylvania, PA.
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Rudders
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Posted: Oct 01, 2012 - 08:40 PM
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Posted: Oct 01, 2012 - 08:54 PM
Sounds right, although not related to new rudders?
The helm is completely tied to the COE vs CO...something else...sigh. It's like you said above, coe back and stern moves with wind, coe forward and bows move. The rake of the rudders just determines how hard they are to move, or how twitchy they are. Rudders back can feel like weather helm, though.
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Rob
OKC
Pile of Nacra parts..
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Posted: Oct 02, 2012 - 08:03 AM
i would try the mast first
i would look at your rudders (and boards if you have any) and see if they have wear on them that could be effecting helm -
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Posted: Oct 02, 2012 - 04:51 PM
This sounds like a good plan.
Does your R21 have the ability in the forestay and side stays to adjust mast rake?
It has been decades since I sailed one but I seem to remember the ability to...
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Posted: Oct 09, 2012 - 09:27 AM
yes it is the Forestay , mine was to tight i lessened it like a loose tooth and went out sailing for a moment to see if it changed! It did now the boat was rounding up! so now i have to find the happy meduim. I do have 2 stays on each side towards stern. it seems my other stays are all the way down so i have to re look at this again.
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1980 Reynolds 21 Catamaran #38
1988 Farrier 27 # 31
2002 Hobie Getaway
Pennsylvania, PA.
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Posted: Oct 10, 2012 - 03:53 PM
Slight rounding up is a good thing. You don't want it to wear you out over a day of sailing but a little weather helm is reassuring.
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Rob V.
Panama City, FL
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Posted: Dec 01, 2012 - 01:07 PM
I use to have serious weather helm on my P-18 and then I trued the rudders with a straight edge like it talks about in the manual. The next time I took it out it was totally different. The difference was amazing. I didnt think that rudders being out of alignment that slight was a a big deal. I guess you learn something everyday.
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Posted: Dec 01, 2012 - 02:25 PM
Hey traneguy do you have that manual maybe u could take a pic of it so I can see if anything on,my boat is similar. I still had helm Issues , I dont know how im gonna fix this for next year. So any help is cool with me..
Edited by soulofasailor on Dec 01, 2012 - 03:27 PM.
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1980 Reynolds 21 Catamaran #38
1988 Farrier 27 # 31
2002 Hobie Getaway
Pennsylvania, PA.
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Posted: Dec 04, 2012 - 03:40 PM
The manual he is talking about is the Prindle assembly manual. It says to put a meter stick along the transom and make the forward tip of the rudder close to the forward edge of the meter stick- like within 1/2". Don't hold me to the details, the manual is avail in the tech section:
This is the specific page:
http://www.thebeachcats.c…ictures/?g2_itemId=75862
This technique is probably not applicable to your Reynolds.
Edited by klozhald on Dec 04, 2012 - 02:41 PM.
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Prindle 16 #3690 "Pegasus" Sold (sigh)
AZ Multihull Fleet 42 member
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Posted: Dec 04, 2012 - 03:57 PM
on our Iroquois mkII 30' cat the rudders are adjustable. too far foreward and we have lee helm. too far aft and we have weather helm.
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Posted: Dec 05, 2012 - 06:30 AM
More things than mast rake involved. Mast rake will load the rudders, without dagger boards that will make a difference.
Toe in or out makes a difference. Not familiar with the boat you have too much but with board slight toe in front to rear is common. Neutral is also common.
Last and most likely the largest factor for lee or weather helm is rudder rake. Moving the rudders further under the boat makes more lee helm, pulling the bottom of the rudder aft gives more lee helm.
If you can adjust the rudders to be not raked under as much it should help. HTH, Ricardo.
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Lake Perry KS
H-18
N-5.5 UNI +spin
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Posted: Dec 07, 2012 - 11:41 PM
The rudder design on the Reynolds was always a weakness. The blades are too thick, and cavitate easily when loaded up. And they have no provisions for raking them fore and aft to regulate helm effort. When sailing in 15 kts plus with a modest weather helm, the rudders would suddenly cavitate, and violent lee helm would set in. Long term, you're gonna want to find boards with a better profile(SC20/22 blades?) and adapt them to your castings. You won't find any beachcat rudder assemblies that will fit your taller transoms.
Another thought, pay attention to your rudder hold down lines/cleats. With greater boatspeed, the pressure on the rudders tends to pivot them aft, which affects both helm and tiller load.
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Posted: Dec 08, 2012 - 05:12 AM
What if I sand the shit our of them make them thinner in width. Is this what u are saying? I do notice. When rudders pop up I have no stearing. And when the boat goes faster it get stronger to stear.
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1980 Reynolds 21 Catamaran #38
1988 Farrier 27 # 31
2002 Hobie Getaway
Pennsylvania, PA.
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Posted: Dec 08, 2012 - 06:29 AM
unless you understand how/where your modifications are going to affect the hydro-dynamics, drag and friction, i wouldn't touch them.
I have seen very sailors completely ruin rudders by trying to modify their profile / characteristics, when they didn't really know what they were doing -
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Posted: Dec 08, 2012 - 09:10 AM
Well i have no idea what i am doing but if they are to thick then why cant i thin them down? And i have no idea what you just said! hahhha :) explain to me how will i figure this out? do i need a big aquarium with water movement as the blades are looked at?
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1980 Reynolds 21 Catamaran #38
1988 Farrier 27 # 31
2002 Hobie Getaway
Pennsylvania, PA.
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Posted: Dec 10, 2012 - 07:57 AM
what about the type of wood to use for making a set of rudders? Have any of you tried this, i was going to trace my originals ok a piece of cardboard and then cut it out. So i am thinking to make them thinner then the original ones? What do you guys think of this?
Winter project :)
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1980 Reynolds 21 Catamaran #38
1988 Farrier 27 # 31
2002 Hobie Getaway
Pennsylvania, PA.
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Posted: Dec 10, 2012 - 08:10 AM
I wonder if i could buy a small sheet of Fiberglass all ready to go, Does anyone know of such a thing?
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1980 Reynolds 21 Catamaran #38
1988 Farrier 27 # 31
2002 Hobie Getaway
Pennsylvania, PA.
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Posted: Dec 10, 2012 - 08:29 AM
the answer is in your own statement... you just have to reverse it...
Q: why cant i thin them down?
A: Well i have no idea what i am doing ..... :)
if you try to modify your own rudders and you are not an experienced marine fabricator, and hydro-dynamist (made-up word).... you are more likely to end up with worse rudder problems than you have now.
Rudders have lots of curve, shape, edging etc.
If you start to shave-off / modify the shape of the current rudders, and don't recreate the correct shape (or develop a new shape that works better...) you will be worse off and now need to find/purchase new rudders to replace
I sail 140+ days a year and hit bottom enough to require touch up work on my rudders and center-boards. I have been working on my rudders (tips) a lot this year (3 different times) by adding gelcoat putty to extend the length back to original size and shape. The amount of time, energy, and skills needed (to fair) are much higher than i expected.
It took me many applications of gelcoat, and sanding back down with multiple levels of sandpaper.... just to develop a semi decent grasp on how to properly fair the rudder edges into ALMOST the right shape, angle, edge, etc. and this was only after i had 2 friends (who were both in the fabricating industry) sit with me for an hour + and show me some technique. It is not impossible, but it is a skill for sure.
Yes, don't forget to get a degree in hydro-dynamics, or find out how others succesfully overcame your helm issues (there has to be others who experienced this).
personally, I would mess with my mast rake, and every other possible adjustment before i touched any part of my boat with sandpaper or drill -
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Posted: Dec 10, 2012 - 08:36 AM
some great data in here
http://www.boatdesign.net…wooden-rudder-35976.html
If you are good with wood... sounds great
Edited by MN3 on Dec 10, 2012 - 08:41 AM. -
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Posted: Dec 10, 2012 - 08:40 AM
Well my plan is to not modify the originals, just copy them maybe just make them thinner the first try, and use wood, maybe hardwood first. get a feel for the designing of it. the Oval shape is all i see and issue in trying to copy that! (the profile)
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1980 Reynolds 21 Catamaran #38
1988 Farrier 27 # 31
2002 Hobie Getaway
Pennsylvania, PA.
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