Sailing w/o Daggerboards?
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Posted: Apr 07, 2013 - 05:00 PM
Is it possible/advisable to sail a daggerboard cat without daggerboards? I sail in fairly shallow waters and am considering a boat that has daggerboards but am concerned that it will be a major headache. Any thoughts or experience is appreciated. Thanks. -
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Posted: Apr 07, 2013 - 05:17 PM
Side slip will be an issue without using the boards but even with a boardless boat you've still got the rudders.
Find a deeper pond.
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Ron
Nacra F18
Reservoir Sailing Assn.
Brandon, Mississippi
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Posted: Apr 07, 2013 - 05:19 PM
Nope, daggerboard boats cannot be sailed on any heading except a broad reach without boards at least partially down. If you are going to sail in waters with significant shallows that you can't avoid, you would be best advised to get a boardless boat with a good rudder kickup system. Hobie 16, Nacra 5.0, 5.7, Prindle 15, 16 and 18 are all good boats without boards. There are also some good boardless boats made by other manufacturers such as Dart and Mystere but they are less common.
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Dave Bonin
1981 Nacra 5.2 "Lucile"
1986 Nacra 5.7 "Belle"
Winnipeg, Manitoba, Canada
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Posted: Apr 07, 2013 - 06:52 PM
Depends on the boat, the skill of the sailor at the helm and the conditions. A Supercat 19 can be sailed with or without the dagger boards and will outpoint a lot of boats without them. (they actually offer a dagger board slot plug for the Supercats) If you push the bows down, (weight forward) on any cat you can make the bow act as a keel and counter the side slip. Tricky indeed on the cats with very flat decks but it can be done.
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'life is too short to drink cheap beer'
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Posted: Apr 08, 2013 - 08:32 AM
There are boats with Skeg keels that work well or a boat with pivoting daggers like a Hobie 17 but a daggered boat without boards is a pig and pain. JMHO, YMMV. Richard.
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Lake Perry KS
H-18
N-5.5 UNI +spin
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Posted: Apr 08, 2013 - 03:09 PM
Welcome to TheBeachcats.com sjmono,
Like the others said, it might be "possible" to sail a boat designed with daggerboards without them, but definitely not advisable (or enjoyable).
What area do you sail? Maybe we can help you find a more suitable boat if you are stuck with extremely shallow water.
Bye the way, what do you consider shallow? The newest most modern beachcats like the F16's and F18's have got some pretty long boards and rudders (The Hobie Wildcat draws about 4 feet), but the older boats like the Hobie 18 probably only 3ft.
Also there are centerboard beachcats like the Hobie 17, 21 and Prindle 18-2 that can kick up if you hit something.
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Damon Linkous
1992 Hobie 18
Memphis, TN
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Posted: Apr 09, 2013 - 01:05 PM
Actually, I have a Supercat 17 that I love, but much of the components (mast, rudders, other missing items) were destroyed by Hurricane Sandy. I'm trying to decide if it's worthwhile to rehabilitate the boat or look for a new one. I sail in the Great South Bay on the south shore of Long Island - lots of shallow areas and sand bars. I was considering the Nacra 5.5 that's for sale on the classifieds but the daggerboard issue is a dealkiller unfortunately. If anyone knows of a 17-18' boat for sale (Nacra, ARC 17, Supercat), I'll drive many miles to get it! Thanks for all the info. -
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Posted: Apr 09, 2013 - 02:46 PM
kick up is a term fiberglass repair guys LOVE to hear. it is a misnomer.
yes, they can kick up if you hit something, but they dont sit there and pivot, there are held back in place via a taught bungee or some kind of locking system.. and it takes force to have it pivot. this area is delicate and critical towards remaining afloat.
every time you touch bottom you sand down your boards (at best) and at worst ., hit something solid, jam your board back off the track, or out the boardwell ... and puncture your hull.. and start to sink.
so if sailing is going to be in very shallow waters, avoid boards if you can ... BUT
you can sail around the high tides and it shouldn't be that huge of a deal... -
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Posted: Oct 06, 2016 - 08:37 AM
The G cats 5.0 and 5.7 and G Force 21 are all catamarans that were designed to be sailed without daggerboards or centerboards. The rudder system is a very simple kick up system but the aluminum casting can break under extreme load. Repairs are fairly easy if one finds a good aluminum welder. They are much easier t sail near a beach especially if one is sailing solo. On another note the G Force 21 is light enough that a crew weight of 330 lbs can upright it easily without a water bag or pole. -
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Posted: Oct 06, 2016 - 05:58 PM
Was the Gforce 21 an actual production boat? I was under the impression only a few were made. I have never found one for sale, I am a loyal Gcat owner and would love something to keep up my friends Supercat 20 that is boardless and has a front tramp.
sjmono, here is a Supercat 17 with good rig and sails but damaged hulls, might be a good Uship candidate if the rest of your boat is still good.http://panamacity.craigslist.org/boa/5736695698.html
Edited by jalex on Oct 06, 2016 - 07:01 PM. -
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Posted: Oct 06, 2016 - 06:42 PM
Ten Gforce 21 were manufactured. Mine is in perfect shape and I will probably drive down to Florida next fall after I get my new sails. I will sail it there a few weeks and bring it back up to New England in the spring. It is a great boat. Not having to worry about "digging" a daggerboard in a sand bar or simply sailing to the beach is unbeatable. I suppose daggerboards make tacking easier but I discovered that with a good crew and good roll tack I have no problem tacking. I have a mesh for my front trampoline and it is no problem for 170 lbs to walk on to mess with Gennaker on a top down furler and bring the jib down and stow it under a couple bungee cords. Try that on a Nacra! And the mesh is just fine when hitting waves! Find one, you won't regret it. -
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Posted: Oct 06, 2016 - 07:41 PM
I just texted and asked hans (manufacturer) .
he said, "we builded 10 g-force21' "
Edited by MN3 on Oct 06, 2016 - 07:48 PM. -
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Posted: Oct 06, 2016 - 07:57 PM
Collinress, do you have a tilt trailer or do you collapse it for trailering? If you collapse it how involved is the process? -
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Posted: Oct 06, 2016 - 08:22 PM
Neither, I have an 8'6" beam. Before I would mess with wider set up I will get a 30' carbon mast to bring my boat under 400 lbs. Having a 32-34 foot mast and bigger sails would definitely require a 10-12 foot beam but who needs that to have fun? I suppose a couple really big guys would like it but we crew my boat and weigh 330lbs. We don't want bigger sails and taller mast. Years ago I saw a guy who was sailing a Tornado with an 8'6" beam and he was having a better time than the guys with the tilt trailer etc... If you really want one ask Hans Geisler if he could track down one, mine is not for sale, sorry. -
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Posted: Oct 06, 2016 - 09:08 PM
I have a NACRA 5.7 on a shallow lake (Pymatuning, PA). Water levels fluctuate and shallow bars come into play when levels are down. The maximum depth is barely deep enough to keep the mast from digging in if you were to turtle. Pretty much guaranteed, that if you go upside down, the mast will drag. Fortunately, with the 5.7, there is no centerboards, and the rudders will kick-up and release if they hit a shoal. Water clarity is poor, so it's hard to miss.
I do repairs on the rudders to keep them whole and water-tight, but I suspect I'd have a lot of damage on a center-board cat.
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Tom
NACRA 5.7 (1984 Sail 181)
Pennsylvania
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Posted: Oct 06, 2016 - 09:16 PM
Yes it may be possible.
No it is not fun.
If a catamaran was designed for daggers or centerboards, it needs them to sail well.
You don't need this kind of headache.
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Posted: Oct 07, 2016 - 08:18 AM
I talked to Hans and he may have a lead on one, should be careful what I wish for I guess. Apparently 8.5 foot beam was more common than the 11 foot beam models. Considering there are only 10 total, I am guessing there are not many 11 foot beam models.
Thanks for the Info MN3 and collinress -
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Posted: Oct 07, 2016 - 11:56 AM
The general answer is definitely not... Maybe there are specific boats that can actually sail, as stated above, but I'm sure they are rare exceptions.. Now if you use the daggerboards partially down, no more than the rudders, I think the boat will sail, probably even as well as a skeg. Wheter that makes sense or not, the general answer would be no.. I guess it depends on why you are interested in daggerboards in the first place. -
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Posted: Oct 08, 2016 - 12:29 PM
Since yestersday there's a Gcat 6.1m for sale in this site cassified ads. Is that what you're looking for?
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AB
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Posted: Oct 08, 2016 - 04:37 PM
You can sail without boards on any point of sail besides close winded. The helm will be stiffer because you dont have a board to pivot around but it's no big deal. I sail shallow's all the time and the only time it's a pain is if I have to go through a channel straight upwind because of how much the boat slips. I found however that 1/3-1/2 board down seems to be the same as full down in a medium amount of wind.
When it gets really shallow just let the rudders pop up and steer with the sails. Don't keep putting the rudders down, just play with the main and you can usually get where you are going.
