Continuing my hunt for a boom-less board-less cat I am now focused on a 1983 Supercat 17. It appears to be in very good shape best I can tell from pictures. As with the Nacra 5.7 I was trying to buy before, popping over for a personal inspection is not an easy thing to pull off given this boat is also quite far away from me.
My question: There are inspection ports (hatches) located on each transom. They are not centered in the transom, but located a little upwards and towards the boat centerline. I don't recall seeing these on other Supercat 17's I've looked at but have heard them mentioned before. Does anybody know if these were factory installed for some of the Supercats or simply indicative of past needed transom repairs?
Thanks
Tim
Supercat 17 transom knowledge needed
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Posted: Nov 05, 2013 - 07:39 AM
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Posted: Nov 05, 2013 - 10:48 AM
You can get information from SC owners and from the designer of the boat himself at their forum http://owners.aquarius-sail.com/phpBB3/ I've noticed those access ports on the transoms of several of the boats from that era. I ASSUME that it is original to the boats but could very well be wrong. The SC's have wonderful support front the factory, Aquarius Sail.
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Mac
Midlands South Carolina
AHPC Viper USA 366
A Cat USA 366
Super Cat 17
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Posted: Nov 05, 2013 - 10:52 AM
Not sure if my experience will be definitive, but here goes:
I have a Supercat 15, and it did not come originally with transom ports. The previous owner reinforced the transoms, and in doing so, added the ports, similar to what you are describing.
They were done well, and I have had zero issues, and actually like the fact that they are there. They allow me to inspect the interior of the hulls (at least the aft portion) and check the rudder attachments, etc...
Don't know if that helps, but for what it is worth...
By the way, I love the Supercat platform. For my particular needs and circumstances, it is truly the best.
Boom less
Board less - which is required in my shallow tide constricted bay
Easy to right with single sailor. I am 185 pounds and I use a righting line with no other poles or bags. The Supercat has an assist mechanism built in.
Hard to pitchpole, due to the large volume hulls
I like the rudder mechanism. Both from a structure and ease of release and adjustment. A friend on the beach has a Mystere, and it is a very nice boom less, board less boat, but he has had a few issues with rudder bracket replacement, and it seems to be a weak point in the design
Easy to pull a hull in 8-10 winds
Easy to drag up and down the beach (I am lucky enough to have mast up storage at the house)
Aquarius has been great on supplying parts when I have messed them up
It is a wet boat - but doesn't bother me at all
I have had a few other cats, and this is absolutely my favorite.
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Supercat 15
Windrider 17
Several Sunfish and Sunfish clones
Ratboat built from Zuma and Sunfish parts
Shallow water sailor in the Delaware Bay
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Posted: Nov 05, 2013 - 02:03 PM
Thanks very much lakewateree and windwardde. I contacted Aquarius Sail. Left a message and in practically no time Tom Haberman called back. Heckuva nice man. He spent several minutes with me describing the hatches and general construction techniques used during the early 1980's era. He recalls that the hatches were installed in '81 and '82 during a time when they weren't installing drain plugs. The one I'm looking at is a '83 with hatches and drain plugs but whatever, he thought there might be some overlap into '83. Or, possibly they were added later as in your case windwardde. He said they dropped the hatches due to leaking problems and because they were compromising transom strength. He noted however that it is not a huge deal to replace them, and obviously reinforcing the transom is done during the procedure (inside and out). I can see how having the hatches could be nice, given proper reinforcement of the transom.
Tom also noted that up until about 1985, the polyester resins used to make the boats were what was common for the day and that sometimes as these boats have gotten older, they have weakened some (transom area and just forward and inside of the front beam. He also said that in 1985 they went to an improved resin. He noted they rarely see any structural degradation over time with the hulls made with the newer resin. And then in 1992 (I think) they went to epoxy and it's wonderful of course.
The boat I'm looking at is a 1983. It looks great, but I'm wondering, seeing as I only want to get the one, if maybe I should cool my jets a little and hold out for a 1985 or later model. Sure wish I could just hop over and see it. Even the owner is hundreds of miles from currently. Maybe a neighbor could get a picture... -
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Posted: Nov 05, 2013 - 02:51 PM
They aren't as common as some of the other beachcats so waiting on a 1985+ model might be a long wait. Not saying it won't happen. I've heard of some hull failures but not that many. The 17 is a great boat, I regret selling the one I had and would like to get another one.
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Mac
Midlands South Carolina
AHPC Viper USA 366
A Cat USA 366
Super Cat 17
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Posted: Nov 05, 2013 - 03:12 PM
transom failures seemed to be an issue on the bigger supercats (at least i have seen a few ripped off and heard of a few other)
I wouldn't worry too much about polyester vs epoxy
just try and take the boat out in med air before you buy it ..
sure would suck to have a cat astrophic failure, but they are rare -
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Posted: Nov 05, 2013 - 03:28 PM
I've got an '84 SC17, no hatches. As noted, these don't show up too often, waiting on post 85 might be tough and every time a 17 shows up on the market, it's gone quickly.
I take care to grease the rudder hardware (WLith) fairly frequently as a precaution.
She's a good boat, simple to sail, power to spare and handles chop like no other.
Fey free to drop me an IM if you've got some questions about the boat -
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Posted: Nov 05, 2013 - 05:21 PM
I agree with falseicon and others here. If the boat is in overall good shape and you are comfortable with the dollars - these do not show up often, and they do go (sell) faster than many others I see for sale. I would not make the decision solely based on year of production and materials used during that time period. Mine is an '82 and is still a rock.
You might think about the rear hatches/ports a bit differently. At least you can tell what the condition is like inside this one, as the ports are there. Without them, you would never know.
I would guess that the transom failures MN3 mentions, would be from a rudder system that was not tended to. The Supercat system is a pretty positive latch, and if it hangs up, will dead stop the boat in the water, which I am sure is not good for the transom.
I keep the sand out of the mech, check it over regularly and I use drylube instead of lithium. Likely it doesn't really matter which, as long as you keep them lubed well. I like drylube as it doesn't attract the sand.
I have looked for a 17 for awhile, but don't want to spend much (cheap sob that I am) as I already have the 15 and all I really gain with the 17 is more room for more people. Usually not a big deal for me, but would buy one if I found it for the right price. So far, haven't found the right price, but again, I may be under motivated.
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Supercat 15
Windrider 17
Several Sunfish and Sunfish clones
Ratboat built from Zuma and Sunfish parts
Shallow water sailor in the Delaware Bay
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Posted: Nov 06, 2013 - 05:37 AM
transoms complete failure (ripped off the boat) after hitting a sand bar
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Posted: Nov 06, 2013 - 11:34 AM
Thanks All, prompt and excellent help as usual. Thank you for the reality checks. I am hundreds of miles away from this one (as usual) so am stuck with buying sight-unseen if I don't want to lose my place in line of suitors. Probably my destiny living in East TN.
Save newer lines, the boat is all original. It is from and currently in MI so I assume relatively little use. Owner is a nice retired engineer and says it appears totally solid to him and that he sees no sign of salt water use. He owns many other sailboats so is not flying blind with his assessment presumably. He says he's always kept the tramp covered since he's had it. Says it's in very good shape and ready to sail now. It looks nice in the pictures and the trailer appears to be in good shape too. He has modified the trailer to make mast raising easy. The boat comes with one set of trapeze wires but no harness. $1,350 plus the cost of a road trip to central MI next spring to get it.
With all the encouraging words from you fine folks I'm now thinking of sending him the check. Tom H. from Aquarius-sail also thinks it is reasonable given the price and fresh water use (he has seen the few pictures I have). At $1,350 it seems I can only screw up so much. I don't want any new larger projects but am well equipped and always expect to spiff things up a bit.
Thanks again so much for all the prompt knowledge sharing and advice. -
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Posted: Nov 07, 2013 - 07:18 AM
I am sure he is really nice, and honest, just like the "religious couple", that was going on mission after they sold me this house - the failed to disclose it is sinking into the ground, and loads of other issues... TRUST NO ONE WHO IS SELLING YOU SOMETHING :)
(i am not sure of your boat buying experience, so forgive me if this isn't needed info)
if it were me (before i drove ANY more than 20 minutes to look at a boat):
I would ask for more images - heck inside the inspection ports even
Ask about the trailer / wheels on the trailer
last boat i purchased made it about 1 mile down the road before the tire crapped out - heck when i sold my h18, the tire exploded on the guy on the highway, driving home...
I would only send a small deposit
I would write up a small agreement (contract) that must be signed by both parties
I would require a small return window (clause ) in-case there is unseen damage
i would spend at least 1 hour looking VERY closely before giving him the rest of the money
require him to rig it with you (including sails) - video him doing it (and take notes) so you recall later
inspect the sails closely ... any damage should be negotiated into the price
and if it didn't work out for any reason, i would move on - there will be lots of people who need money over the winter and boats are cheaper this time of year
Edited by MN3 on Nov 07, 2013 - 07:19 AM. -
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Posted: Nov 08, 2013 - 11:09 AM
Thanks for all the sound advice MN3. I do have considerable experience buying used boats (15 in the fleet currently), and I certainly agree with all you said. Unfortunately, circumstances preclude following a fair amount of your good words.
My problems are many: I live in a area where Supercats (and all performance cats) are rarely found for sale nearby. This particular boat is currently in northern Michigan (over 700 miles from me), and its current owner is hundreds of miles away from his boat living at his winter-time home near Detroit. He also has a buyer from Texas who has offered to send him a check sight unseen. This buyer has a relative right near the boat who is able to take it away for storage.
It's a weird deal at best, but I think if I don't want to spend years searching it may be a weird deal worth taking a chance on. Time will tell. I've sent the check and the owner says he'll send the paper work down and once he gets back to the boat, he'll do a real good check specifically looking for my concerns so I know what I'm in for or not in for. He has already said he hand washes the boat and has noted no issues. He also mentioned that he was a retired mechanical engineer, avid sailor, and is a stickler himself for structural integrity. Time will tell. He will store for the winter for me in northern MI and then bring it down to his Detroit home next spring for me to pick up. Hopefully!
Thanks again. -
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Posted: Nov 08, 2013 - 11:26 AM
if your set on this boat .. and don't mind the gamble...
best of luck to your new sc17
i have been on them many times, great and fun boats -
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Posted: Nov 08, 2013 - 11:38 AM
That is a MAJOR bummer. In Canada if you pull a stunt like that, the buyer can negate the deal, & sue the seller for "failing to disclose a material fact that would have adversely affected the fair market value." Caveat Emptor still applies, & you can't use it weasel out due to buyers remorse, but most Realtor contracts now have a clause regarding undisclosed deficiencies, generally water ingress, major structural, or in your case sinking out of sight.
I'm not sure anyone who has a "winter home near Detroit" is trustworthy...think about it.
I never take the line about a "buyer in Texas ready to send a check sight unseen" seriously.
I've heard similar stories from many vendors, it may be true, but often is just a means of applying pressure to the buyer, & psychologically removing some bargaining power. I totally ignore it, (unless I know for a fact I'm getting a screaming deal) if someone else does buy it, well, you've still got your money in your pocket & you've only lost an opportunity, another WILL come along. Often the one that does come later is better.
My buddy & I were getting sick of moving the heavy steel frame dock each season, & I considered breaking out the wallet for a major project. Two months later the dock deal of the Century fell out of my buddies cell phone. Within 8 hours of getting back from Tokyo we were loading 8K,(that I got for $1500), worth of almost new aluminum docks onto my Al Cat trailer. Built by Hewitt, in Minnesota I think, with "beach wheels" & a crank on the topside to adjust height. SWEEET! No more hernias at dock time, was I ever glad I passed up on a couple of other "deals".
Edited by Edchris177 on Nov 08, 2013 - 11:38 AM.
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Posted: Nov 08, 2013 - 12:25 PM
I can always sue
winning the case is not guaranteed and even if you do, collecting isn't always guaranteed either (esp with missionaries who may not have assets)
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