Hi there, name is Marc, 46 yrs old and currently call Tucson Arizona home. Looking to get back into sailing cats after almost 30 years. Used to sail an abused Hobie 14 when in Jr. High and High School, but always lusted for this Nacra 5.2 that ran circles around our entire Hobie fleet at the regattas.
Anyway, wife and I were in SoCal for a couple weeks just hanging out between Oceanside and Coronado on the beaches and in the harbors and bays. We rented a Hobie Wave and Getaway and had a pretty decent time but Wave was too tiny, and that Getaway was like sailing a Jeep in 4-lo.
But in the Mission Bay marina there was a Nacra 5.2.............. so I checked it out. My dream boat from my youth is much smaller than I remembered it and the tramp was way too cluttered and small for me to even consider buying now. If I bought one of the older Nacra's (5.2, 5.5, 5.8) I think by the time I repaired and updated them it would be cheaper to buy the next newer generation boat?
So I have some questions about the other Nacra's out there, keeping in mind these facts:
I'm 6'4" and 220-240lbs depending on time of year.
Wife runs 130-150lbs
We are both in our mid 40's and not in perfect shape but not slobs either
I want a boat that I can sail fast / race solo (not wanting to get tied into strict racing class rigidity)
I want a boat that when wife is aboard for the ride (not as crew) it will be a nicely behaved recreational boat
I want a boat that if I want to race with crew (140-180 lbs) can still be reasonably competitive
I always thought the 17' solo class boats were about the perfect length, but now am thinking maybe 18' is the way to go for a couple reasons, mainly the restrictions on some of the offshore races to 18' or longer.
I also really want the forward buoyancy the Nacra's are famous for. Pitchpoling with wife on-board is not going to be good........................
So I am looking into these relatively newer Nacra boats and need input from guys / gals that sail them:
Nacra F17 / Inter 17 - is it really just an updated, sexier 5.2? how is it better and is the tramp bigger and less cluttered? Does it have more freeboard than the 5.2? It looks like a shorter N20 which is a gorgeous boat. Is 400lbs total crew weight going to turn it into a dog? Now that the Olympic boat is a N17 ( albeit way more bada$$) is there going to be a resurgence in its popularity? I see they are grandfathering them into a new Nacra17na class with the Olympic boats.
Nacra 5.5 - How much cost to turn it into a modern boat with spin? better to look for the newer Inter 18? Could it be something that meets my desires?
Nacra / Inter 18 - (prior to the F-18 class or infusion) Is it going to be a boat that can be sailed / raced solo at 220 lbs? Would it serve me better overall then the Nacra F17?
I know I do not want a H16, the H17 won't handle a wife or crew, H18 with wings sounds ok but like the looks of Nacra hulls much better. Prindle 18 is out, rather have boards, 18-2 if free because cost to repair / modernize one is gonna be high.
Enough rambling, I'd appreciate everyone's thoughts on this. If money was no object I would buy both a Nacra F17 and a N20 but that isn't going to happen anytime soon.
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Thanks,
Marc
Tucson, Arizona
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Nacra questions
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Posted: Nov 06, 2013 - 07:05 PM
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Posted: Nov 07, 2013 - 06:52 AM
h18 is your boat (many around, still race, built like a tank, lots of parts)
nacra 5.5 or 5.7 or 5.8 - are great but less parts around and hardrer to find others to race in class with
or a mystere 5.5 or 6.0 with wings - same as the nacra
adding a NEW spin is around 3k - 2k for sail, 350 for hoop and sock, 100 for pole, 250 for lines and hardware - obviously used is much cheaper -
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Posted: Nov 07, 2013 - 09:17 AM
Welcome to TheBeachcats.com! and welcome back to beachcat sailing
I agree with MN3 on the Hobie 18 or the bigger Nacras. The alternative if you want to go with a spin boats (spins have completely changed beachcat sailing) then go with an F18 of any kind.
None of the boats labeled as "solo boats" can handle your size (competitively).
Misconception based on Nacras confusing naming habits. The new Olympic Multihull is the Nacra 17, not the Nacra F17 (and there was never a 17 foot formula rule). The Nacra 17 Olympic Multihull is a completely new design and is optimized to match the requirement for mixed-gender crew in the Olympic multihull class.
The Nacra or Inter F18 (another time Nacra used a bad name) is the oldest of the F18 class boats and doesn't handle weight as well as the newer ones.
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Damon Linkous
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Posted: Nov 07, 2013 - 09:32 AM
For YOUR situation, my advice would be a Nacra 5.5. Don't even think about adding a spin, buying sails, or changing anything except the standing rigging and sheets. Sail it for a year, with and without your wife/crew, and figure out what you would change if possible. Sell it and buy a boat that has incorporated those changes.
Considering YOUR location (ie not the north pole like some ppl on here), swapping boats yearly isn't too daunting of a task with a little driving. Driving to Cali and back for you won't take more time or money than adding a spinnaker...neither is recoverable, granted, but, as someone that's dumped lots of time and money into upgrading boats, I'm speaking from experience when I say you're better to find the best fit for right now, sail it, then sell it and get the best fit at the time again.
To address the boats you did:
N5.5 - pretty damn good fit for your weight (boat is a hair smaller than optimum), can be solo'd by you either with or without jib depending on skill/conditions. Quick to rig, solid stiff boat for its age, very fun, and 8.5' beam is pretty stable. Also, the tramp is extended a foot farther aft than on the 5.2, so it's quite a bit larger.
H18 - solid as a tank (don't get an '84), cheap, simple enough and great for you and crew. Huge jib means solo isn't going to always be an option, and if a situation arises, your crew might have to pull her weight.
I18 - Unless you know you want a spin right this instant, I can't imagine a good reason to get this over the 5.5. More lines to pull, work to rig, danger, money to buy, money to fix, concepts to learn, when compared to 5.5. For the price, though, probably an awesome entry to F18s, but you last sailed a h14 3 decades ago? Wait a year. Next season, the market value for 5.5 will be the same, I18 will be lower.
N5.2 - Great for you to learn on, and even if you sink it you're not out much more than gas would cost to go hunt down the boat of your dreams. Would be a dog with you and crew (could be a good thing at first) but will teach you how to pull every line you need to know when solo (as it's set up for 2 ppl.) Probably the single wettest ride there is, which in Oklahoma in the summer is awesome. I imagine Tuscon is the same.
N5.8 - Tall rig, narrow boat = hull flying beast. Large jib (like the H18) means you ain't soloing it for the first season without some scars to show for it. Would likely be a blast for you & crew starting second season. I've seen two early thirties guys get their asses handed to them by starting out on a 5.8, though. IMO it's just too powerful for most ppl to learn on the job (ie first season w/out someone teaching them.)
I17R/F17 - If you get one with a sloop rig, it would be a good boat for you. The tiny handkercheif jib adds a ton of power to the main, and obviously you just leave it off to solo. Without the jib, it would be a dog for you and anyone else (even a dog...it's pretty weight sensitive) I'd guess that the boat is still a little technical for someone their first season...I'd be shocked if anyone could master uni rigs quick enough not to have some horribly boring or even frustrating days on the water when the wind lets down. Great second season boat again, though, IMO, with a small and very simple, but modern enough, spinnaker setup. Value seems to be plummeting on them as well (to my dismay), but don't buy one. Seriously. I want them to end up here so I have someone to race straight up. And good luck figuring out that whole F17na thing btw.
P18.2 - No idea why you seem to be against this. Just think of it as an N5.5. IIRC the only noteworthy major differences are 18.2 has a boom and kickup centerboards, 5.5 has daggers and is boomless. I'd consider them fairly interchangeable for your situation. I haven't sailed an 18.2 though, just seen a few of them.
I20 - No idea why you even brought this up. Too much everything for your situation.
Also, keep in mind that Prindle specific parts are going to be fairly interchangeable. Nacra 5.2 & 5.5 parts are almost all interchangeable. Inter parts are almost all interchangeable. The Inter parts are going to set you back quite a bit more than the others, though. Think of this and the likelyhood of breaking a rudder or dagger. It's not a small difference...maybe twice the cost at the least.
Hope that helps, apparently I'm feeling chatty...sorry it's so long. All just my opinion, based on my experience, for you considering the situation you laid out in the original post.
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Rob
OKC
Pile of Nacra parts..
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Posted: Nov 07, 2013 - 11:03 AM
I sailed my h18 solo 90% of the time. 5-25 knots
The furlling jib made it possible, plus learning how to sail and to depower (and right a cat), and rum,... i mean some courage ... it was very duable .. just a lot more "work" compared to a modern sailplan
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Posted: Nov 07, 2013 - 11:46 AM
Fair amount of good information, fair amount of bad information in this thread. The Inter 18 is already at rock bottom as far as pricing; it's not F18 class legal with the carbon mast. The non-Infusion F18's from Nacra aren't competitive around a course, so actually reasonable value for a spinnaker boat. Same with the Hobie Tiger. The I20/N20 was probably brought up because they are inexpensive nowadays. It's too much boat for a husband/wife team and the parts are expensive. Just don't break a mast.
All are much faster and easier to handle than the Hobie 16 and to some extent the Hobie 18. I don't think the 5.5 is a bad starting point, but if you want to race you really only have the F18, F16, Hobie 16 and A cat fleets in numbers for competitive races, though I think there are some larger Hobie fleets (H18) in the western states. Buy the boat you think you want now, the spinnaker can always stay in the sock. -
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Posted: Nov 07, 2013 - 02:32 PM
I would go with the Hobie 18. I started on one and it took me a few years away from it to realize how good that boat was. Its easy to handle and sail, very comfortable with wings. Its not going to depreciate significantly, parts are plentiful and cheap. Its easy enough to solo, but it will also take your wife and another couple for a sail if you like. It's got enough power to have fun and fly a hull, but it's not so overpowered that you can have fun on it in 25kts of wind. It doesn't pitch too easily. I hear you on the looks, but don't count it out too quickly. I would buy it and figure how much you and your wife actually like sailing, and then buy a dedicated solo or crewed boat.
All of the other boats mentioned will have harder to find parts, and will also likely have more expensive parts.
I haven't seen an i18 or a Nacra f18 that I thought was reasonably priced, buying parts for these can be a real PITA.
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Posted: Nov 07, 2013 - 05:16 PM
Grew up in Wichita Kansas................. Lake Cheney Hobie Regattas............ good times. I remember that 5.2 being a really wet ride back then with not much ballast on it, can't imagine how low it would sit today with the wife and I both on it!
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Marc
Tucson, Arizona
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Posted: Nov 07, 2013 - 05:40 PM
Thanks for the welcome and replies so far.
I know the new Olympic N17 isn't the same boat as the Inter / Nacra F17, I thought the I17R / F17 could be my best value for entry level spin boat if it could handle my size well enough to fly hulls etc. The Cathouse has a page claiming they are combining the old I17R / F17 and the new Olympic N17 into a new NACRA17na class........so if there is a new active class again for the old I17R / F17 might they become more sought after than they are now with a dead class........? .And yeah I agree, NACRA has been fluffing up boat names and killing classes since about 1983...............
So between an I17R and an I18, besides length and beam, are the hulls the same shapes, or is one newer / better than the other in same situations? If I choose to get a spin boat now, and could find one at reasonable cost, those would probably my choices right now based on cost to acquire etc.
And to clarify, I mentioned the N20 only because if I was to be able to have a two boat solution, I would want one for ocean stuff with 2-4 aboard and then also have a fast enough 17'-18' solo boat for my regular sailing on AZ lakes.
Edited by renegade on Nov 07, 2013 - 04:49 PM.
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Thanks,
Marc
Tucson, Arizona
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Posted: Nov 07, 2013 - 06:01 PM
We have some experienced Nacra F17(R) folks here so hopefully they will chime in, but I don't think the F(I)17(R) is known as a good weight carrier. The hulls are tall but extremely thin.
In my experience ANY beachcat that is designed as primarily a single handed boat is going to be optimized for well under 200 pounds crew weight. Doesn't mean they will sink with more but does mean the performance falls off comparatively quickly with every extra pound.
Since the Nacra-Inter F(I)18 was designed as a two-handed boat it should handle more weight.
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Damon Linkous
1992 Hobie 18
Memphis, TN
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Posted: Nov 07, 2013 - 06:48 PM
a couple of things to think about...
-budget...sale price plus the standard B.O.A.T. unexpected repairs/upgrades.
-trailer sailor or mast up storage? set up time for spin boats off of a trailer is much longer.
-race-to-cruise ratio...are you just having fun or are you an A-type race junkie? how many races a year vs cruising.
-are you ready for a spin? might cause marriage problems!
now time for the "if-then" game.
but remember, the most quoted advise people give to people getting back into cats is...wait for it.... the best boat for the money. you will be somewhat limited on choices so get the best overall boat for the money...sail the crap out of it, and decide later if you are ready to upgrade or downgrade(a modern spin boat in winds can be exciting
! sometimes a little too exciting!!!).
good luck and cheers!
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bill harris
hattiesburg, mississippi
prindle 16- "BLUE RIBBON"
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Posted: Nov 07, 2013 - 08:08 PM
Find a good used NACRA F-18 and you'll be very happy... I have been through a few boats in my day and I have one now... AWESOME boat for the sailing I do.
There our there
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John Schwartz
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Posted: Nov 07, 2013 - 08:30 PM
I sail a 5.2 solo at about 220, great time, perfect amount of boat for my weight solo, but a LOT of different lines to pull solo. I enjoy the challenge though. I don't tolerate things that I don't like so I cleaned up the tramp a lot. Removed the center tube, new trampoline that hides 2/3 of the jib car wire/line underneath the tramp and got creative with how I run the line. I still have some work to do but it is better.
If your wife is just going to ride along occasionally I'd say the 5.2 or 5.5 are good choices, a 18 square is a great solo boat also.
I race often in the summer time, and the boat will go. I race with everything from Hobie 16's to Tornado's F-18's, F-16's, and A-Cats, the high end boats obviously leave me behind but the boat holds its own. I'm happy with how the boat does for how much money I have into it.
The F16s and F17s are awesome for guys like us, main and spin, and you can throw on a self tacking jib when you have a crew, a little more expensive though, well a lot more.
I'll keep retro fitting the 5.2 until my oldest son is old enough to crew then we will get whatever everyone is into then. I'm guessing f22 with 3 man crews...
Next summer I'll be able to tell you how it does with laminate square top sails and the year after that maybe I'll be able to tell you about a spin or hooter, but I would still say that the 5.2 or 5.5 can be the boat of your dreams and had pretty affordable-ly.
Also go WILDCATS! I have family in Tuscon, I haven't been there in a while or ever sailed anywhere there but I love the city.
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Posted: Nov 08, 2013 - 07:57 AM
+1
spinnaker became a 4 letter word with one of my girlfriends - the following week we broke up after 3 jybes
the BEST advice i have heard is, sail your boat for a long time (till you can rig with your eyes closed) before you ask your wife (or other) to come sail. At the least, let her go have coffee for an hour or 2 while you rig...
as mentioned above, (unless i missed it) what is your budget?
if you have lots of $$$ , this would be a great ride- http://www.nacrasailing.c…580-range-fun-and-sport/ -
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Posted: Nov 08, 2013 - 09:39 AM
Budget will depend on what boat................. for the right reasonably newer spin rigged boat would like to find a deal around $4k or under if it has everything I want, like that F17 in classifieds that just went for $3000 in a couple days. For the older boats, it will depend on the condition as to what I would pay, but can't see paying $1000 for a 5.2 or similar type older boat that will need a bunch of work ( money pit).
One thing I have going for me is I maintain and repair / modify aluminum and composite aircraft structures for a living........... so fixing these type boats is not a problem for me.
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Marc
Tucson, Arizona
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Posted: Nov 08, 2013 - 09:54 AM
your budget seems kinda optimistic to me
what is newer?
my 94 mystere 5.5 was $3200 sans spin i added a spin for around 2k = $5200
6 years later i have purchased 3 spins, 4 jibs, 4 mains = $3500 more
a 10 year old f18 is gonna be around 8 or 9k and that is the closest to your descriptions. (that 17 would not work well for you and ANY crew)
PS my 84 hobie 18 was a great deal at $400 (in "well tested" but working condition). i sold it for $1200 (on this site in 30 minutes)
Edited by MN3 on Nov 08, 2013 - 09:55 AM. -
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Posted: Nov 08, 2013 - 10:32 AM
a cheap boat with brand new squaretop radial cut sails and new tramp/standing rigging is like having a brand new boat. I did this with my old p 16 and it made it 1000X more fun and terrifying...talk about overpowered
! the new sails make the biggest difference you can have on a cat. last weekend, I had 3 of us on the boat in 10kt winds and still almost flipped the boat...still couldn't beat with the travelor centered, and still haven't been able to trim sails to fly tells on the main yet...too much power! before, it had to blow over 12-15 kts before I could fly a hull(untrapped)...now, it's going to take both of us on the wire in 10 kts to even come close to full power for the sails and i'm a biscuit short of 250lbs! find a good set of hulls and rudders for cheap and invest in sails/tramp/rigging...a 4000$ budget will do this first class. a 9000$ boat prolly needs sails anyway...
the holidays are just around the corner, great cat shopping time of year, baby needs new shoes!
Edited by coastrat on Nov 08, 2013 - 10:38 AM.
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bill harris
hattiesburg, mississippi
prindle 16- "BLUE RIBBON"
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Posted: Nov 08, 2013 - 11:27 AM
My spin boats cost me about $2k per year in maintenance to keep "competitive". Many of the cheap boats are well behind on updates and maintenance. The more expensive boats are often a better deal considering the price differential.
The only spin boat I know of that would reliably trade for that price would be an F18HT.
I have a A&P as well, it doesn't translate all that well to these.
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Posted: Nov 08, 2013 - 12:53 PM
http://www.cathouse1.com/f17na.htm is the page you are referring to. It's all a pipe dream. Don't get me wrong, I am sure Kurt and Mark are great dealers, but this is pretty much a joke. Equal racing on a F17 vs. N17 with main sail only isn't going to happen. For starters, the only people sailing N17's are running Olympic campaigns, and these guys are really fast. As in you won't see them fast. Do you expect to compete with sailors who spend 3+ weeks each month in a training camp with full coaching and practice races against the best multihull sailors in North America? Lets not even delve into the 10 year technology gap between the two boats, or the fact that the N17 sail plan is not designed to run uni-rig.
Bacho's numbers are pretty accurate. Enough cannot be said about buying a boat from an experienced racer, or at the least someone who used their boat regularly and properly maintained it. Dealers stay in business because of parts support.
Good luck,
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Posted: Nov 08, 2013 - 01:05 PM
By newer, I refer to generation not year per say. I kind of think of the 5.2 -5.5 -5.8 as "first gen".....and the I18 - I20 - I17R as "2nd gen" ..... I mainly refer to the late 80's -mid 90's 2nd gen boats I guess. Budget actual $$$ amount isn't anything I am that worried about, for the right boat I would pay the least amount a seller would take after doing my homework on what they typically have recently sold for etc ...........
But therein lies the reason for this thread, which you all have been very helpful so far, what is "the right boat" or boats "right now". The I17 - I18 generation of boats I seem attracted to may not be what I need right now unless I find a screaming deal on one.
Hotrodding a 5.2 or 5.5 sounds like a really fun project, and I just contacted a guy with a 5.2 for sale for dirt cheap but haven't heard back. Between the 5.2 and 5.5, I would prefer the larger space the 5.5 offers myself. But as has been mentioned, a 5.2 for the right cost wouldn't be a total waste of cash in a season or two when I want a bigger / newer boat provided there is a buyer out there wanting it.
As for race vs recreation.............. I will never be interested in spending the time and cash to compete in the F16-F18 type of class. When I think of racing, it is more in the mixed regatta stuff, like the "Border Run" or "Tri-Point"," Frenchy's Rum Run" SoCal races etc.
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Marc
Tucson, Arizona
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