I'm thinking of doing the Hawaiian style righting system due to the fact it looks efficient and looks the cleanest in my opinion when not in use, But I'd like to also see what else there is before deciding.
Are shroud extenders all there made out to be?
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Saint Simons Island, GA
Saint Simons Surf Sailors
Nacra 6.0NA
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Hobie Wave
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What's the best/most efficient righting system?
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Posted: Mar 02, 2014 - 07:04 PM
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Posted: Mar 02, 2014 - 08:55 PM
I too like the Hawaiian system, it's right there, so really quick to deploy, which can be very helpful in fast righting. And if you've practiced with it and gotten it to just the right length, you jump on the lower hull, hook into your harness, lean out and you're immediately at maximum righting moment. If you've got enough crew weight on the line for your boat, it'll come up. If you're solo, you may need additional weight from a righting bag, and a way/place to store it so you can get at it quickly. I have a pocket sewn to the underside of the tramp.
I have a righting pole on the F16, and it seems to me to have more leverage than a righting line to a harness, although that statement may be disputed. I can right that boat solo with the pole only, with me at 160 lbs, but the boat is only 230 lbs with a light mast and sail combination.
The ARC and the SC20 both have shroud extender systems that extend the shrouds 30", which does indeed allow the platform to get a little past vertical before the mast starts coming out of the water, which aids righting noticeably. We still need 2 guys on the righting line, and in a blow we need the drift sock off the bow to keep it properly aligned to execute. But these are big, wide, not light boats, and they really need these systems to make them rightable without outside assistance. And don't forget that when you get it up the rig want to flail about terrifyingly until you can get the boat on the correct tack so you can repin the lengthened shroud. Hard to do solo in a breeze, as you can't leave the helm to go fuss with that leeward lever/shroud end. So it's my opinion that the shroud extending system isn't 100% reliable for solo sailing. And as someone pointed out, the mast base needs to be pinned to the main beam for this system to work.
The F18HT that recently found a new home in BC had one of Hobiegary's Solo Rights, and it allowed me to easily pop up that admittedly lightweight boat solo. I can help you build one if this is your choice.
Develop a system and practice with it(or crash a lot)! I could avert a tragedy, or at least keep you from looking stupid. This is a requisite catsailing skill if you're to be considered a prudent sailor.
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Posted: Mar 04, 2014 - 06:40 AM
Great question, my answer is "whatever works for you" Simplest is a line thrown over, but that doesn't work for everyone, so you have to find what works for you on your boat.
Dave, I just got an F-16 (Blade) and weigh 165. How long is your righting pole, how is it fastened to the boat, and my biggest question is how to you use it w/o it swaying fore and aft when you're using it? Do you just hang w/your upper body and feet on the boat, or do you climb out on it... maybe a pic? Thanks much! -Rob -
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Posted: Mar 04, 2014 - 10:29 AM
The pole extends about 4" aft of the rear beam, and is secured there with a couple loops of shock cord, which is useful not only for quick deployment and reattachment, but it also allows the pole to move downward when you put pressure on it from above as you scramble across the tramp.
If you only have one line from the outboard end of the pole to the main beam, it will swing around wildly! making it un usable. I have two lines, one clips to the forestay tang, and the other clips to a loop of vectran around rear beam where're it intersects with the hull. The lengths are pre determined(thru practice!) to keep the pole in the plane of the mast and main beam. The only downside of this set up is that you've got to go fwd to unclip the line at the tang when the boat is righted, which can be exciting, solo in a blow. If that line were longer yet, maybe it could pass around the tang and then be secured to another loop around the main beam. This would greatly ease the unclipping. Once un clipped, with the boat moving fwd slowly, the pole trails aft, and you can lean over the rear beam, pull it up and loop the shock cord around it. I usually just pull the lines over the beam and leave them in a big mess on the tramp until I get to shore and sort it out there.
The pole is a carbon windsurf mast, and has the std rubber universal joint at the main beam. The joint is bolted to simple alum bracket that is riveted to the aft side of the beam just below the mast step.
No pics at the moment, the boat's in MT under a blanket of snow. Maybe later.....
Dave
Edited by davefarmer on Mar 04, 2014 - 08:32 AM. -
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Posted: Mar 04, 2014 - 01:09 PM
For solo righting, a line (or hawaiian style) is likely not enough for just an ordinary human being... Suposedly with the right technique, wind conditions (meaning that wind is needed to push the sail up) and depending on your weight versus which boat we are talking about, it might be possible, but most likely not. In my experience, probably due to my own limitations, whatever they were, a righting line plus a righting bag were not enough either. But this might work for you, I would give it a try if you don't want to install a righting bar. And if it works, I would then question whether it will "always" work.
For me it was a righting bar, of which I know two kinds: centered at the frond beam, as described above, or mounted somehow at the lower hull (usually at the daggerboard trunk). Both need to be angled up so that your body doesn't sink before time. From the former you hang up and from the latter (also known as "Hobie Gary" style if you want to google it) you stand (or sit) on it and walk backwards until the boat starts coming up. Given that the Hobie Gary bar is supported at the hull instead of the beam, it is further out so it can be slightly shorter. The lenght is not a minor consideration (or so the say...). My first attempt was with a beam mounted bar that was too short: about the distance between beams of a N5.0 (I weight 83kg). Today, for a similar length a hull mounted bar works perfectly on my N5.5, tested with 0 wind.
Here is my system:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DKuSSZ7JxBA
Of course I don't use all that length, I cut it about a meter or less beyond where the lines are attached, but that point (where the lines are attached) is close to where I need to put my weight (butt..) to make it work. -
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Posted: Mar 04, 2014 - 01:14 PM
For what kind of boat?
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Kenneth Purdy
Hobie 16
Nacra 5.2 (2)
Banshee
First Coast, Florida
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Posted: Mar 04, 2014 - 05:38 PM
Right now a hobie 14t, in the near future hopefully a p18-2
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Saint Simons Island, GA
Saint Simons Surf Sailors
Nacra 6.0NA
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Posted: Mar 05, 2014 - 10:18 AM
The problem I always found with the "Hawaiian" righting system or any other self-retracting system is that you always end up fighting the bungee cord. Because there is so much line in the system, the cord needs to be pretty strong to retract the righting line and therefore, it can be difficult to pull out which means you are trying to lean against a bungee cord and/or the righting line is trying to retract and pull out of your hands. So yes, these systems store very nicely on the boat when not being used, but when you actually need to use them, they are not the most efficient.
I find the simple righting line thrown over the hull to be the easiest to use. Store it in a pocket on the tramp or tied off to the tramp lacings. It takes a couple seconds longer to take out and stow, but is really versatile and easy to use when you need it. I usually take the line and wrap it once or twice around my harness hook and then hold it with my hand. This means my arms take virtually zero strain when leaning back.
I also usually keep a righting bucket on my boat if I'm sailing solo or there aren't any other boats around. I've never actually used the bucket yet though, so can't speak to its usefullness.
Regarding shroud extenders, you really need to be careful with these IMO. Keep in mind that you are detaching part of your rigging when you use them. You need to have a captive mast base system on your boat or use a retaining wire otherwise you will likely dismast when popping the shroud. You also have to consider how you will re-attach the shroud on the water once the boat is righted. If you are solo, this could be quite difficult.
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Posted: Mar 05, 2014 - 12:18 PM
I have a Hobie 14 and I am just over 200lbs. I just leave a line attached to the dolphin striker and if I dump it I just throw the line between the trampoline and hull, loop it through the hook on my harness for the trapeze and lean over and it will come right up.
Now the Prindle 18 you are going to probably need either a righting bucket or bar for some leverage. Shroud extenders would probably help too.
We had two gentlemen on a Hobie 21 dump it in some serious wind during the mug race and they told me they would not have been able to right it without the shroud extenders.
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Kenneth Purdy
Hobie 16
Nacra 5.2 (2)
Banshee
First Coast, Florida
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Posted: Mar 05, 2014 - 07:42 PM
I figured the 18 would be a tad more of a trick to get over, for sure would have a righting bucket. I like the idea of the extenders they just seem kinda risky. Also Just noticed your pretty close to where I am, (Saint Simons Island, Ga)
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Saint Simons Island, GA
Saint Simons Surf Sailors
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Nacra Inter17
Hobie Wave
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AMF Sunfish
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Posted: Mar 07, 2014 - 07:51 AM
Yes, I live in Jacksonville. I either launch my Hobie 16 or 14 off the beach at Huegenot, or leave them on the beach in Atlantic Beach, or I always have at least one of them at the Rudder Club on the St John's River at the Buckman bridge.
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Kenneth Purdy
Hobie 16
Nacra 5.2 (2)
Banshee
First Coast, Florida
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Posted: Mar 07, 2014 - 09:16 AM
A line thrown over the hull has always worked well for me. I had one of those wrap-around bungee types on my H18. I did not like it as much, hard to adjust how much you wanted it to extend and you did seem to use some extra energy with it.
My F-18 has an interesting system on it. It has a 3/8" line that is almost the length of the distance between the beams. It has stopper knots tied on each end. It passes through a pad-eye on the front beam located next to the hull. The other end of that 3/8 has a 1/8" shock cord tied to it. That cord runs through a block on the rear beam and is tied back on the front beam.
When you want to use it, you pull the 3/8 and it extends until the stopper knot hits the pad-eye. It seems nice because the 1/8" shock cord does not add much resistance. -
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Posted: Mar 07, 2014 - 02:09 PM
Got a pic? I'm thinking one on each hull?
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Ron
Nacra F18
Reservoir Sailing Assn.
Brandon, Mississippi
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Posted: Mar 07, 2014 - 07:08 PM
On my N5.5 I normally have a line attached at the center of the front beam, for me it is both a righting line (combined with the righting pole) and a tow line (or to attach to a buoy, which I sometimes do). For tow line the beam attachment is not good, but I pass the line through the hole at the center of the bridle foil. Just pass it through, I don't tie it there. This also helps to store the line: it is normally set the way I describe, from the beam to to the bridle foil, then back to the beam and tied there with a quick knot. There is some extra length very easy to store on the tramp pocket.
I can imagine a similar solution for boats without bridle foil. After a capsize I will not pass the line back through the bridle foil again but store it on the tramp bag. -
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Posted: Aug 25, 2016 - 10:29 PM
Agreed.
Critical information.
No Prindles have a captured mast ball. When you open the shroud adjuster after you have capsized, you will dis-mast your Prindle.
Buy a pre-made dock line (it has a large eye splice on one end). The diameter is determined by the size of the opening in the grommet in your tramp at the base of the mast. Get a 20-25 foot line. Tie some big knots (half grapevine) at about 18 inch intervals (probably three or four total) above the eye splice and then figure the length of the rope by wrapping the line around your hull as if you were capsized. Make sure you plan for the eye splice to be about a foot under water. Tie it permanently in place in the center tramp grommet (knots above and below) and store in your tramp pocket.
The eye splice gives you a step to help you get both feet up on the hull, and then grabbing the righting line, lean back for all you are worth. The knots give you varying places for you and your crew to grip. As the cat comes over, the plan is for one of you to flop over onto the deck as the hull in the water rolls upright. This will keep the cat from continuing over to capsize the other side. You need to be a Flying Wallenda sometimes for this last bit to work. (We do have trapeze- just sayin".)http:// https://en.wikipe…iki/The_Flying_Wallendas
If you have trouble getting back onto the boat, take the eye splice end and wrap it around the base of the mast a couple of times to create a step for you to use to get up over the front crossbar. The dolphin striker could be your second step.
Easy Peasy, right? Nope. Takes practice - especially in the ocean.
Edited by klozhald on Aug 26, 2016 - 05:07 PM.
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Sheet In!
Bob
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Prindle 18-2 #244 "Wakizashi"
Prindle 16 #3690 "Pegasus" Sold (sigh)
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Posted: Aug 26, 2016 - 11:50 AM
My H16 came with the Hawaiian set up, but I am unclear about shroud extenders, could someone please explain what they are exactly?
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Marty
1984 Hobie 16 Redline Yellow Nationals, "Yellow Fever"
Opelika, Al / Lake Martin
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Posted: Aug 26, 2016 - 12:27 PM
Shroud extenders are typical on Supercats, in particular.
They have an extra wire on lower part of the shroud that is connected to a "caming device" similar to a miniature chain tightener for heavy equipment chain tighteners.
Once you have flipped and loosened your sheets, you flip the cam open and it adds extra length to the shroud, allowing the mast to be pulled further out of water before your weight and moment arm kicks in.
The point made earlier re mast ball is that without having the mast ball captured, you could pull the mast out of the ball and now, not only are you flipped, but you are demasted.
Supercats do have a mast ball captured if you leave the pin in.
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Supercat 15
Windrider 17
Several Sunfish and Sunfish clones
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Shallow water sailor in the Delaware Bay
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Posted: Aug 26, 2016 - 06:35 PM
Check out this video - Very easy to make and deploy.
www.youtube.com/watch?v=jTRS5pTZGV4 -
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Posted: Aug 26, 2016 - 07:18 PM
i carry a righting bag (or2) -
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Posted: Aug 26, 2016 - 11:05 PM
Thank you for the clarification about the shroud extentions, I would assume that my boat being a H16 would not need them. I've looked my set up over today and it has the righting lines connected to a long shock cord which goes from the dolphin striker to the rear bar and has a couple of pulleys near the rear bar. I assume this is how it should be set up. Also, I see that the aft part of the righting line needs to be tied off to the rear rudder casting or rudder pin? Is that correct? I've removed my rudders for a little sanding and cleaning up so I tied off the righting line to the rear frame post for now. So when I reinstall the rudders and tiller assembly, where exactly do I tie that righting line?
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Marty
1984 Hobie 16 Redline Yellow Nationals, "Yellow Fever"
Opelika, Al / Lake Martin
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