I have been playing with and trying to tune my stock rudders up and even machining parts and still having a baffling problem with the port rudder that no one seems to know whats the cause.
That aside... what are the rudder options? As in just new blades or whole systems? The only options I can find are the Dotan systems. They seem to kinda have mixed reviews. Some say they are great but maybe a little heavy which I don't care. Others say they are complete junk. Craig with the green 5.2 says he loves them but I haven't heard any updates or exactly whats best choice on the gudgeon situation with the Dotans on the 5.2.
I hate to bring this up again. I tried to search but came up with little info for the 5.2 specific.
Nacra 5.2 Rudders
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Posted: Aug 19, 2014 - 08:43 PM
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Posted: Aug 19, 2014 - 09:19 PM
Could you be more specific with what your issues are? -
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Posted: Aug 19, 2014 - 10:12 PM
First I shortened the tie by by an inch. I didn't have any more adjustment one direction. Fixed that problem. Then I re-drilled the pin holes in the tie bar ends to accept the next size up pins to have zero play. Now the tie bar to tiller arms are completely play free. Then I re-drilled out the gudgeon holes and the casting holes to 11mm with new 11mm shafts. Zero play in those now. Then I filled the pivot bolt holes in the blades. Then used a straight edge lined up with the gudgeon pin centerline and kicked the rudder 1 3/4 inches past the centerline at the furthest most point on the front edge of the blades. Aka just raking the blades under the boat more. Then redrilled the holes. Added the 2;1 system on the rudder down haul. Replaced the pivmatic cleat things with cam cleats or even less pulling the line back.
Now the boat always pulls to the right on any tack or wind condition. Lifting the port rudder completely fixes it. Lifting the starboard rudder changes nothing. With both rudders down I get BAD weather helm on starboard tack. BAD lee helm on port tack. But if you lift the port rudder the helm goes neutral. Lift the starboard rudder and you still have the same lee or weather helm. AKA the boat always pulls to the right. The toe adjustment was just set on the money about half way down the blades. The rake seems to be nearly identical. Oh and I also raked the mast back 2 holes on the forstay. I didnt notice any gains so I will put it back. But I can't imagine that is the issue.
Since then I have brought the port rudder back for close inspection. After looking very hard it looks like the rudder is cocked sideways in the casting in a manner that would make the boat always pull to the right. So I pulled the blade out of the casting. I put a long bolt in the pivot hole in the blade and just looking at it you could see majorly that the hole was not straight on both axis. As in looking from the top of the rudder down or looking from the back to the front. So I once again filled the hole and this time mocked up the rudder in my mill using levels and such. I re-drilled the hole absolutely perfect to the line where the two halfs of the blade where they are glassed together meet. Hard for me to explain but the hole is now dead on straight on both axis. So I bolted the blade back in the casting. Still looks cocked in the casting exactly the same. Now very frustrated I pulled the rudder back out again and looked at it against a black background and found that the two halfs of the rudder don't even match. The foils and shape to each freakin side are not even the same. So now I question how straight the casting or casting holes are.
Anyways. I discussed this for 4 hours with another expert today and decided upgraded rudders sounded pretty nice right about now :) -
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Posted: Aug 21, 2014 - 07:48 AM
Hit Pete Begle up, you will find his contact info on the classifieds, he has everything Nacra, used parts. Did your cat have this problem before you started tightening the steering system up? usually there is so much slop in the steering that the issue with the port rudder only surfaced when you tightened it up due to that rudder being slightly different in shape. Rudder might have been replaced at some time in the past and you now have 2 different foils, to save $$$, order 1 foil and match it up to your existing foils to make a set, if you don't want to waste time, order a set and keep existing for spares. Don't forget to align rudders slightly toe-in once you have a set. -
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Posted: Aug 21, 2014 - 08:07 AM
I decided to order the Dotan's and skip out on any issues.
The boat had bad weather helm period before I did all the work. Now just the pulling to the right issue. I ran into someone else who like you said has found different rudders that don't match. One big racer told me the other day he bought 3 sets of rudders before he found a pair combination he was happy with. Gezzz What a mess. Hopefully the Dotans will be happy.
Def set the toe with a friend dead on right before I sailed. Its something in the port rudder. -
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Posted: Aug 21, 2014 - 08:12 AM
Have a set of 5.2 rudders & castings. Pete 909-800-5237 -
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Posted: Aug 21, 2014 - 08:12 AM
Don't be surprised if the problem still exist after the Dotan's.
Good luck.
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Philip
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Posted: Aug 21, 2014 - 09:09 AM
Pete I think it would save time if you just gave us all the short list of things you DON'T have...
So here's my idea...get some carpet from the dumpster of a carpet outlet, and find a flat slab (one piece) of concrete. Get your boat off the trailer and on the carpet. Check plumb of the rudder pivots(I think they're called pintles?) My bet is they arn't the same, or the hulls arn't in the same plane. That was/still is my problem...on my P18 when you tighten up the beams, one bow is up 2" from the other, and one stern is 1" up from the other, so my boat sails much better and points higher on one tack.
In any event, be sure to post the results of your efforts. Best of luck
jon
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Repairable P18
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Posted: Aug 21, 2014 - 10:15 AM
Lets say the boat is not square. Which I highly doubt after talking to someone else. How would you ever fix it? -
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Posted: Aug 21, 2014 - 10:27 AM
If the hull themselves were not square pulling up the port rudder wouldn't really matter. It would still pull to the right. Lifting the port rudder fixes the problem. -
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Posted: Aug 21, 2014 - 10:56 AM
Talking to someone would certainly help square up a boat, I can see that. ..heh hehh. But seriously, I'll have to get back to you on that one. My buddy and I tried tightening the beam bolts several different ways, with one wife on the high hull and one wife on the high stern and we didn't change a thing--as soon as the bolts snugged up they slowly pulled the hulls out of line. I will soon have the boat at my house full-time, so with luck I'll figure something out. Maybe redrilling a few of the beam holes? Anybody got any ideas? Fatter wives?
And you are correct about your boat, my bad. The problem almost has to be the port rudder area. Could the transom have been repaired off center, or at an different angle to the other? I mean so it looks like the other side, but isn't.
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Repairable P18
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Posted: Aug 21, 2014 - 11:51 AM
How about shims under the beam as you tighten bolts? Pete -
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Posted: Aug 21, 2014 - 01:38 PM
When I said I talked to someone about it we chatted for a good while about ideas and he agreed he doesn't think its a square boat issue. Also if the boat was not square when it flew hull the issue would ease or disappear. But it doesn't.
I agree. I think all fingers are pointing to the port rudder area. The boat has no repairs in the rear. The gudgeons on the transom def could be off from the factory or something like you said. But I just find it unlikely that is the case and no one has brought up the issue after 27 years. Im going to put some dowels in the gudgeons and play with some levels and stuff just to see how things are. But even as I said. Just looking at the blade you can see that the foils and shape from the left of the blade and the right don't even match and the blade still looks cocked in the casting. As in with the blade down the leading edge points to the port. That would make the boat do exactly what its doing and stop when only that blade is lifted.
Shims sounds like a great plan! -
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Posted: Aug 21, 2014 - 01:45 PM
Hey memphsinacra, I missed your first post, Welcome to TheBeachcats.com!
I didn't know there were any Nacra's in Memphis.
Do you live in the area or just repping an old hood?
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Damon Linkous
1992 Hobie 18
Memphis, TN
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Posted: Aug 21, 2014 - 02:25 PM
I just got it from Atlanta a few months ago. Boat is in pickwick and mostly sails in pickwick. I have a snark, laser, macgregor 26d, and catalina 30 also. I live in downtown memphis.
The rookes say hello. I work for Chris. I was told about you! They told me danger danger stay away. hahaha! I have been chatting with Warner over at Little Rock about my problem. He spoke to a few others and is baffled. I'm bringing the boat back from pickwick this weekend. Do I need to make a trip to the butt? Is that where you are sailing? -
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Posted: Aug 21, 2014 - 02:51 PM
Absolutely! We have been building up a nice group, usually have 5 or 6 on the water Saturday and Sunday and there are at least three new ones that I haven't met yet.
We do our racing on the Gulf Coast but keeping the boat mast up at the lake is really convenient for local sailing. Water level has been reasonable ( a little high ) this year so we have a beach to raise sails beside the ramp. Sailing regularly are two Hobie 20's, two Hobie 18's, two Hobie 17's, several Hobie 16's and a Getaway.
I know there are more hiding out we just have to get them back in the habit of hitting the lake every weekend.
Delta Sailing Association membership includes mast up storage for just $225 per year.
http://deltasailing.com/Downloads/display/lid/2
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Damon Linkous
1992 Hobie 18
Memphis, TN
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Posted: Aug 21, 2014 - 03:09 PM
Yea. I have been down there when I was looking for a boat. Ill be keeping my boat at pickwick. I might have to come down there and play sometime. -
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Posted: Aug 21, 2014 - 04:03 PM
Where do you sail out of Pickwick? I've been over there plenty of times, but it's a lot farther away and I've always found it really bad launching conditions for beachcats.
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Damon Linkous
1992 Hobie 18
Memphis, TN
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Posted: Aug 21, 2014 - 06:24 PM
My 30 is at grand harbor. I put in at the marina ramp and paddle or sail it about 100 ft to my 30. Depending on the wind I either just leave from the dock with a paddle or if the wind is wrong I tow the cat out with the 30. Anchor the 30 and sail the cat. It's only a short paddle from my dock to the mouth of the marina if I have to. I worry about sailing out of the marina for when some idiot in a big power boat thinks he's king. -
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Posted: Sep 03, 2014 - 02:17 PM
Just to give some feed back for future on lookers....
I measured the boat and the boat was square as I could possibly measure. The new Dotan rudders DID fix my boat pulling to the right issue. Now I have slight weather helm and going to adjust the rake a little more to fix that issue. Thanks to everyone who said the issue was not the rudders. It was...
I love the Dotan rudders. They feel very strong and not weak at all. The parts ana all seem very well made. The way they work is a very neat setup as well. The lifting and lowering of the blades works much better in the water than out. I feel they are a for sure step up from the factory rudders and assem. They are drop in replacements on my 5.2 besides bending the tillers to clear the boat. The shipping was super fast too. Very happy customer.
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