I looked through your album, & I know funds are tight;
Trap sheaves, don't worry about them. I have had several sheaves break, but the pin will stay. You can still use them, without the sheave til you change wires.
Same thing for the traveler sheave, if it breaks the pin will hold the line. It looks like an old Kenyon, I had the same thing on an old 5.2, it had "Kenyon" stamped on it. Don't put any lube on it. If you can find sheaves that fit, change them. Just be careful removing car from track. The wheels are sitting loose on short studs, they will fall off & spill TINY bearing everywhere.
Use a small block of closed cell foam,(something smooth...I stole a bit off the wifes yoga mat), make it wide enough so you have to squeeze it a bit to make it the width of track.
Squeeze & slide car onto foam block, then wrap some tape to keep it there, reverse to install. Do I need to remind you NOT to let those wheels fall off!
Use your traveler cleat,it looks serviceable, once the teeth get worn, they won't hold. They are easy to change, I have a bunch of them. You don't need the whole thing, just the jaws, they disassemble easy. Use blue Loctite to assemble, you don't want that small bolt coming loose.
The tramp looks pretty beat, but is probably serviceable, I would have it completely restitched with good UV thread.
The fitting on the front beam looks like a gudgeon for a rudder pin, same as on your transoms, don't know what they added it for.
When you rig your rudders, use the bolt holding tie bar to tiller to hole your bungee, it's easier than figuring out how much extra to stretch it to make up for the distance it slides back down the tube to the pivmatic pin.
Mast rotator- you might want to forget about it til you get used to the boat. It has to be released every tack, & if you forget, you can break the mast...there is a note somewhere in the manual about that. See my old Nacra 5.7 album for how to rig it.
DON'T leave your diamond wires as is. If those arms slide up or down on the wire, you lose the integrity of the truss, & all the strength. You can use rigging tape,(the bit of seizing wire the manual calls for is not great), but the cheap fix is a roll of electrical tape. Get coloured tape,(the black leaves icky residue) then tightly wrap it in a figure "8", above & below the spreader bar. That will prevent any movement of th e spreader on the diamond wire.
If you don't have those little plastic donuts on the diamonds, just above the spreader, add some. They keep the jib from wearing as it rubs on the bars. You can buy a set that clip on if they are missing, this is what I put on the 5.0.(I used the smaller size, for 3/32" wire IIRC...they were $18)
http://www.westmarine.com…par--jib-rollers--111864
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NACRA 5.5 uni - project boat, main beam damage
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Posted: Nov 26, 2014 - 06:32 AM
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Posted: Nov 29, 2014 - 11:49 PM
I told my wife this, and she gave me a dirty look.
I don't think I'll have to remove the car. I just duct taped it on to the track before I removed the track.
So the big news/update is: I took a deep breath and a fresh beer, and went to work drilling out all the old rivets to remove the fittings from the old beams. I was expecting to go slow, use lots of cutting oil, and probably wreck a few drill bits on the many stainless steel or Monel rivets. BUT, the first rivet drilled like butter… what the??? And I quickly realized EVERY SINGLE RIVET on the old beams were aluminum. Unbelievable. No wonder every fitting was loose and wobbly. But no matter, someone else's crappy work meant I was drilling out each rivet in 4 or 5 seconds. I am just hoping that the rivets on all the mast fittings are not aluminum too - this would be a disaster waiting to happen. Aluminum just isn't appropriate for high stress fittings on a boat. I shall investigate and replace them all if necessary.
Not only that, but I found things like the traveller cleat rotator plate was riveted with looooooong aluminum
rivets that didn't make it all the way through the casting so they could pull/mushroom properly. Essentially just a little friction from a very soft metal in the sidewalls of the hole. Oh dear. I can't believe half their fittings didn't rip off the boat.
The old beams are now stripped, and the new beam tube is cut to length and ready for assembly. I'm experimenting on a piece of beam tube off cut with x-fine grit wet/dry sandpaper. Since I'm not gutting anodizing done, the new beam tubing is quite shiny, and I want to dull it down a bit so it doesn't look odd, or show up scuffs and scratches too easily.
Questions: Should I through-bolt the traveller cleat on to the casting, rather than try to rivet? (It really looks to thick to rivet, as the previous owner must have found out).
Also, do I have any options attaching my old traveller track to my new beam, besides drilling a bunch of huge holes to fit a socket through to nuts on each screw?
What the hell were they thinking?!
Swiss cheese!
Like butter
Edited by sierracat on Nov 29, 2014 - 11:50 PM.
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Tom
Hobie Getaway, Nacra 5.5, Hobie Tiger
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Posted: Nov 29, 2014 - 11:58 PM
This is a uni rigged 5.5
Thanks for all the other tips. Will wait and see which sheaves/cleats decide to explode in the first big wind. Will install the rotator cleats but not use it unless needed one day.
I thought my tramp was serviceable, but went outside the other day for a proper look and the stitching is toast - it can all be ripped apart by hand. I think the fabric itself might hold up, so I'm taking it to a local upholstery place to get restitched (I'll ask if they have UV thread for UV resistant thread). In the meantime I'll be daydreaming about a brand new electric blue tramp from SLO sails some day…
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Tom
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Posted: Nov 30, 2014 - 07:07 AM
I've got several of them, from old 5.2's, I think they are all riveted. I think it was just aluminum rivets to hold the casting to the rear beam, I remember they drilled off easy. The bullseye used machine crews to secure it to the fitting. SS bolts would be easy, but you have to make sure the bolt heads don't interfere with the swivel mechanism, IIRC there is not much clearance. I', going up to the lakehouse tomorrow, I'll see what's in the bin, I might be able to send you an entire package.
It will loose much of that shine quickly, with exposure to the elements.
Myself, I would suck it up & start drilling. Those old tracks are fairly high profile, the rivets would need to be close to 1" long. I think you also need countersunk heads that will end up flush with the track.
There is quite a bit of stress on the track, though it is spread out over a bunch of fittings. If you did go aluminum rivets, I think a backing washer would be in order. You will need to keep everything in alignment. I would fit the track, then wrap tape to keep it in place, then mark or drill pilot holes, from the track through to bottom of beam. Then drill out the bottom holes, that way everything will line up. The machine screws will be pretty small diameter, you can use a 1/4" drive, or even a nut driver handle with small socket, so the final holes won't be that large. Support the beam rightside up, so you can install nuts/lockwashers(or use blue Loctite) from the bottom, that way they won't fall off...it will be a 15 minute job. Just stick a bit of gum/plasticine etc into the socket so it holds the nut/washer just flush with socket edge.
You will probably need fasteners with countersunk heads, I can't remember how much clearance there is from track to car on those old setups.
If they only do upholstery, it might not be a good choice. Someone who does awnings/biminis etc will understand what you are doing, the stresses on the tramp & have proper thread. A chap here who used to own a boat & awning business redid our entire 5.0 tramp for $40. Expect to pay more if they use Technora(sp?) thread.
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Posted: Nov 30, 2014 - 08:55 AM
I had picked up a H16 a few years that had a tramp like yours with the stiching routed and the fabric still in good condition. I took mine to the local sail loft and they did a great job of restiching the whole thing and installing new hicking straps $60. it's still in great shape.
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Jeff O
N5.0
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Camarillo CA
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Posted: Nov 30, 2014 - 10:29 AM
No sail shops anywhere near me. I'm sure my local shop can handle it. They do boat covers and awnings etc.
Thanks, very kind of you.
In my opinion, every rivet should be stainless or monel, unless through a very light duty fitting. Can't speak for what you've come across. I will be using all stainless 3/16 rivets on all my fittings. I've used aluminum for other non boat projects - they are very soft and weak.
No issues with time spent drilling - the 6061 cuts like butter with a good bit, especially step drills for the large access holes needed for a socket head. (Step drill bits are AWESOME!) I just keep pondering the sag in the old beam, and the amount of material taken out from the underside of the rear beam with all those 1/2-3/4in access holes. Structurally, I don't like it. Swiss cheese. But if that's the standard way, so be it. My beam tube is 50% thicker (0.125") so I shouldn't be concerned. They probably had some sort of accident to put the bow in the old rear beam anyway. I keep hearing rumors of previous owner's run-in with heavy snow pack one year, so that could explain a lot of things.
I will be using all the old SS countersunk machine screws/nuts that came with the old traveller track. Loctite is a good idea - I'll pick some up.
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Tom
Hobie Getaway, Nacra 5.5, Hobie Tiger
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Posted: Nov 30, 2014 - 10:39 AM
BTW, I have a method of lining up through-holes on large diameter tube like a beam. Take a punch and make a dot. Get a flexible flat tape, and measure the circumference around and back to the dot. Divide that number by two, and measure that amount and make a another dot (e.g. 9in circumference, make a dot at 4.5). Drill each dot independently. Done - no need for a drill press. Did I mention how awesome step drill bits are? They also slightly
self-bevel the rough edges of the hole.
Edited by sierracat on Nov 30, 2014 - 10:40 AM.
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Tom
Hobie Getaway, Nacra 5.5, Hobie Tiger
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Posted: Nov 30, 2014 - 01:28 PM
It isn't a problem, all the Nacra's were built that way,& I've never heard of beam failure. Think about aircraft construction, the webs in a wing are so full of holes there is more hole than material. It's all about where the holes are in relation to the load.
If the holes were in the side, it would weaken the beam. If the beam is subject to vertical bending loads, the bottom is either being compressed or pulled apart. Either way the remaining material is stronger than the rest of the boat.
Be sure to use blue, red is for more permanent fittings, though it can be undone with the application of heat..
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Posted: Dec 01, 2014 - 11:07 AM
Tom,
It looks like your boat is going to be better than ever, glad you are able to get it all figured out.
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1992 Hobie 18
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Posted: Dec 01, 2014 - 01:50 PM
Yes, it's coming along nicely, thanks! I appreciate your positivity. Almost done building the main beam from all raw materials, and then the rear should be even easier (less calculating anyway). I plan to start a new thread documenting the methods and tips for beam rebuilding, and generally compiling all the obscure information I've found out about early Nacras from different sources. Some of the info I've gained has been from these forums (I'll copy the links to my various threads with Q and A in the new rebuild documenting thread) but also there's some nifty facts I've found out that I couldn't find on the internet anywhere for the life of me. Hopefully the next person with an old Nacra project can get 90% of the information they need from one place.
One interesting fact I learned (from Nacra): Mast post/v-strap/beam assemblies are not mounted vertical relative to the top deck of the boat. They are angled a small amount aft (ball leaned aft, bottom of rod forward), perhaps 10º or less. Makes sense with mast rake.
OK, back to the shop for more tinkering.
Edited by sierracat on Dec 01, 2014 - 01:52 PM.
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Tom
Hobie Getaway, Nacra 5.5, Hobie Tiger
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Posted: Dec 01, 2014 - 03:26 PM
Yes, the entire idea behind the V-strap is to create an engineered truss, much stronger than a 4" beam could supply. The load still tries to bend the truss,(creating tension on the bottom of the tube & V-strap & compression on the beam top), but the strength now approaches that of using a beam with a diameter equal to the length of the DS rod. A 14" beam would achieve the required strength, but would be difficult to mate with the hulls, & probably weigh more than the truss.
The Mast ball serves as a means to connect the mast to the truss & transfer the vertical loads to the DS rod, & thereby to the truss.
The truss is strongest when the load is vertically through the DS rod, & weakens as the loads move away from vertical. The extreme would be a horizontal load,(mast falling), failure would occur at the load required to bend the DS, or tear the hull fittings/straps loose.
Edited by Edchris177 on Dec 01, 2014 - 03:29 PM.
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Posted: Dec 03, 2014 - 09:17 AM
I have not forgot about the dimensions you asked for but the boat is in the barn not here and I have to pick a day to go dig it out and get the measurements you wanted. Nice work so far. Richard.
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Lake Perry KS
H-18
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Posted: Dec 29, 2014 - 01:21 AM
Hi Richard, no worries, and thanks for checking in. I won't make you go to the trouble anymore as I've blasted ahead and built the new beams and assembled the boat. Everything seems to be lining up so far.
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Tom
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Posted: Dec 29, 2014 - 01:52 AM
I've been busy! I built my new beams, and assembled the hulls, along with finishing the trailer. No tramp installed yet, and need to overhaul the rudder assemblies. First test today putting the mast and sail up, checking the stays were the right length and all my calculations add up (they did!). Very exciting to see it come this far!
One concern - with the sail up I noticed the old adhesive outline of a removed sail marking that reads '18s' (as in 18 square). You may be able to just make it out in the photo, below the Nacra logo and the red 5.5 numbers. So my 5.5 uni, made up of 18sq hulls, with previously chopped down 18sq beams, may now also have an 18sq sail?! I guess I don't really care what we should be calling it, but I would like to know if it truly is an 18sq sail, and if so, how that might affect the boat on the water. Bigger sail area comes to mind, with added power, but not sure if this will change the handling adversely (besides the extra healing moment). The mast is 29'6" long (excluding casting) and the sail seems to fit it well. I know early 18sq had a boom, then they went to boomless. This sail almost looks like it was made for a boom. Perhaps the silver colored clew plate could have been added later?. Even hooking my mainsheet to the most inboard hole of the clew plate, sheet tension isn't pulling outboard enough, and the foot of the sail won't tension properly. On the most outboard hole it looks just ridiculous - the foot of the sail has a giant flapping belly in it. I know the rear beam/traveller is meant to angle slightly forward on boom less, and slightly aft on boom rigs, but I don't think that will matter the way things stand. Any thoughts appreciated. 5.5 uni boomless sail, or 18sq boom/boomless sail? Issues?
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Tom
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Posted: Dec 29, 2014 - 05:47 AM
I really know nothing about boomless rig but the rear beam look too much forward if we compare it to the 5.5SL in the classified.
Maybe the angle of the shot make it look like that.
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Posted: Dec 29, 2014 - 09:26 PM
Well it is certainly not a 1990s style boomless 5.5 sail, those had a 'boomlet and a distinct triangle and flat part. From what I can see, it does appear to be an 18 sq sail that a hefty 'boomlet' plate has been attached to. The good news is that the sail does have a distinct downward triangle below the lowest batton, the same as the boomless sails. I think the 18 sq sails were made that way, or the previous owner (or even the factory) may have modified it for boomless. So the boomless rig should tension correctly. So that sail will likely work for the intended use as long as you hook the mainsheet up to the forward or middle holes only. If you get behind the main beam you definitely wont be able to tension it with the mainsheet properly.
The only thing that really worries me a bit is that there may not be enough room under the sail to get enough tension on the mainsheet. It doesn't look like there is a lot of room on the mainsheet to tension the sail. I'm not too worried about the tension in the foot, you can't really gauge it unless you are under load I'm more worried about running out of mainsheet to tension the whole rig. Is there any room at the top of the mast to raise the sail a few more inches? If so you should adjust your halyard so you are as close to the top of the mast as possible to buy you a few more inches. Also if you have any rake in the mast try and straighten it out. This will give you more room but could limit your adjustment ability to fix other performance issues.
I would try it out on the water before investing a lot of money or parts in it. Chances are with a few adjustments it will work fine. If you find it doesn't work well then you have a few options.
#1, rig a boom to it. Not as hard as you might think. You can get a swivel from another old Nacra then its just a piece of aluminum tube (2" dia by 1/8" wall will do) a couple of cleats pad eyes and some dyneema rope to make the connections and a workable outhaul. I can send you most of the parts (except the mast connection) for the shipping cost if you can wait til spring.
#2 buy a used sail. Maybe you can find a real 5.5 sail or you could even pick up the 5.0 sail pete has and that should work just fine (maybe a little underpowered) or even find a 5.7 sail.
#3, get the sail recut. Probably the trickiest option but if you find someone knows what they are doing it could be done.
#4, get a new sail designed. THat would likely be more money than its worth. -
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Posted: Dec 29, 2014 - 10:03 PM
Google some Nacra 18 square pics, should answer boom questions. Looks like most of the boats used one,
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Posted: Dec 30, 2014 - 10:20 AM
Very early 18sq used a boom, and I believe later versions went boomless. It's difficult to figure things like this out when the Nacra models spanned many years, and were constantly evolving, especially since 18sq were a development class. I've looked at more 18sq photos on the internet than you can imagine - usually pictures of boats on the water from a distance and difficult to make out much detail, and most have a much more modern (square top) sail than what I have.
Anybody who has some good detail photos of boom setups on any Nacras, I'd love to see them. Like Wolfman says, I should probably sail it first as is before putting any money into further mods, but I can already tell the mainsheet angle and poor sail tension long the foot and elsewhere is going to bother me. I might go ahead and just make it a boom rig. The 20' stick of aluminum I bought for the beams (4" x 0.125) was only $100, so I'm guessing 6 or 8 ft of 2"x 1/8 or even 1/16th won't break the bank. Especially if kind folks have some fittings to send me! (thanks Wolfman).
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Tom
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Posted: Dec 31, 2014 - 01:03 AM
Wolfman, great info as usual.
On the most forward hole, as in the pic, the mainsheet is almost dead vertical, or perhaps just very slight rearward pull. It does weird things to the sail and doesn't look right at all. Obviously the boat will still sail, but I think it would drive me crazy.
I didn't pay a lot of attention to way up there unfortunately (the test rigging was fairly hurried, not only because it was 28 degrees out). I'm pretty sure though that the sail was raised to the max.
We guessed the hole position on the 10 hole chainplates, pretty much the middle, and found the stays too loose and the mast too vertical. So we went lower in the side stays, but didn't mess around too much since there were other things to test out (I was just happy the stays seemed to belong with this rig and were close enough). We need more tension still I feel, and more aft rake, so next time I'll put the side stays on the bottom holes and the bridle connections on whichever holes needed to get it tight. When making my new v-strap and cutting the beams etc. I deliberately wanted the mast rod and ball to only protrude from the main beam the minimum distance needed for stepping and rotation clearance, plus a bit. I ended up with about one inch of exposed threaded rod between the top nut and the bottom of the nylon ball (about right according to my veteran nacra source). Anyway. I see rather a lot of pics of mast rods extending waaaaaaaay out of the beam - several inches of exposed rod - mostly because the replacement rods were made longer than the originals to cater for all models, bigger and smaller. Anyway, in hindsight my nice low profile mast ball may have put some extra slack in the stays with the decreased height. Hopefully I can still soak this up and get the right rake. If not…. damn.
I digress. In the first photo, where you don't see much clearance, the main sheet is cranked pretty tight. I was seeing what would happen with the foot tension, and also checking out the mast bend. I think I'll be ok with enough clearance, although you have me wondering if it'll be a squeeze to get under the sail when going about, especially with a boom!
As for your suggested options, # 2, 3 and 4 aren't an option financially. Besides not doing anything at all, I think making a boom would be the cheapest option, and not overly difficult. Especially if you send me some parts! (thanks! - lets talk more once I have a solid plan for this boom design).
Leaning toward this. Not concerned at all with the process of fabricating it, but more so finding the right parts and getting the dimensions and mechanics of it working correctly together. I realize its a pretty simple part once it's in use, but I like to do things right. I have seen google search images of various nacra gooseneck parts, but no detailed pics of them fitted to a boat, so I really can't visualize the attachment between boom and mast properly. I would prefer to go off the mast, not the main beam, since I'll sail with a partner most of the time, I want as much clearance from the tramp up front as possible.
Someone suggested a strop/loop of line *around* the boom and through an eye on the clew plate, directing the pull straight to the sail and not through the boom. This would allow for a lighter boom construction. I like it. But would I have just one loop, and pick one of the three holes to thread through, are have three loops (one through each hole) to maintain adjustability in the pull direction? I think I can almost answer my own question (one loop?) and that the outhaul will take the place of changing the sail shape (e.g. flattening it out) instead of changing the pull point or using a clew traveller (that's another thread )
And the mast rotation wishbone - currently mounted facing forward (boomless). Would I need to remove and face aft with a boom? I basing this question on stuff I've read here previously. e.g. "All boomless rigs you want to induce rotation, especially off the wind. On rigs with booms the rotation is induced due to compression from the mainsheet on the boom, so you want to limit rotation"
I hope my questions don't seem to daft. I'm rebuilding a boat I've never sailed, and my last significant cat experience was 15 years ago!
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Tom
Hobie Getaway, Nacra 5.5, Hobie Tiger
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Northern California
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Posted: Dec 31, 2014 - 01:35 AM
About as clear an image as I can find. This is a forum member's 5.2. Still can't quite make out the connection detail.
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Tom
Hobie Getaway, Nacra 5.5, Hobie Tiger
Wish list: A-cat classic, F16 Viper!
Northern California
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