I was reading about a trip from San Pedro to Catalina Island for baech campin in Novemer this year. I live down here and this sounded fun. I read that these cats had motors and it helped as the wind was light getting there and back at times. I read about the motor mount for $450.00 (Ouch!). I heard a 2 hp Honda motor is good but I'm wondering which is more common on cats, gas or electric? I have no special needs other than getting away from cement boat launches and to escape the stuck in irons issue. I saw a few different ways to mount the motor as well. Would I need a short shaft or long shaft? Any advise out there will be appreciated. Thanks.
Edited by trailertrashjohn on Dec 11, 2014 - 02:15 AM.
Motor for H18
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Posted: Dec 11, 2014 - 03:56 AM
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Posted: Dec 11, 2014 - 04:31 AM
Firstly, I do NOT have a motor so this is strictly opinion after research not experience.
I am new to cats. Just got an ARC 17 and have been looking at motor options as one of my preferred sailing venues has a concrete ramp and breakwater so I may be well served by a motor . Time will tell. It would be nice to motor away from the dock and set up on a beach a 100 yards away. Yes a paddle is a less expensive option.
Anyway I considered the small Honda outboard but it is not light and i don't like the gasoline engine especially if i capsize. Some will tell you no problem. Pull the spark plug to clear cylinder. Not for me. Cost of the BF 2.3 is about 1K.
I believe the better choice would be the Torqueedo. Yes it is expensive but aside from initial cost I see no downside. Here is a link to the product followed by a link to the small Torqueedo (503) in action
http://www.torqeedo.com/us/electric-outboards/travel-503-1003-with-integrated-battery-for-inflatables-dinghies-yachts-up-to-1-5-tons/video
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3PGe5ndu_Ag
I'm not sure if the 403 or 503 is a better choice.
For obvious reasons I quickly discarded the idea of a Minn Kota or similar trolling motor with the 30 pound car battery.
Lastly:
There is (was) another electric out there called the electric propeller or something like that. It seems to have disappeared off the internet. May still be around. Not sure.
In the end spending over 1K for a motor may sound crazy but if traveling in rocky areas or if caught in dead calm offshore it's not so nuts in retrospect.
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Posted: Dec 11, 2014 - 11:40 AM
Paddling is a better option for little work arounds like rocks....I wouldn't want to have to deal with the engine on a regular basis...I might as well get a dinghy and motor around...
on a longer trip like we did to Catalina an engine is a good thing to have to avoid frustration with winds dying on you...nobody spent $450 on a mount though. You can buy a decent used small 2-3.5HP 2-cycle engine for that price and rig a mount for a fraction of that. 4-strokes are also getting lighter, and a used one may not be as expensive. An Evinrude 3.5HP weighs only 41lbs which is just slightly more than my 3.3HP Mercury 2-stroke (35lbs).
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Marek
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Posted: Dec 11, 2014 - 01:05 PM
you can buy used marine engines and rig motor-mounts... but you should not skimp on a work VHF radio and other saftey gear if you are going for a 40 (roundtrip) mile ocean cruise. -
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Posted: Dec 11, 2014 - 01:38 PM
If you are going to mention a VHF radio, I would say that a PLB is an absolute must out in the open ocean. -
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Posted: Dec 11, 2014 - 02:18 PM
I agree, and i bet the guy in Hawaii who was just picked up after 12 days a drift ... after he capsized and broke his ships radio - wish he had one -
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Posted: Dec 11, 2014 - 02:41 PM
Thank you all for your suggestions. If I do get a motor I decided to make my own motor mount. I work in a manufacturing job and we have a machine shop so I'm good there.The electric motor in the link above is very loud. The other one I can't seem to get anything from the site listed... Is there an electric trolling motor that has enough power to push an H18? I know they are slower but I'm really not planning to go too far but farther than paddling. -
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Posted: Dec 11, 2014 - 02:43 PM
$500 for mount if quality is well worth it. Sure you can fabricate a mount but sometimes its worth having a fixture which well just works as it should.
i have seen mounts rigged with plywood and bungee and in one case the motor kept shifting.
As far as a small 2 or 4 stroke how do you handle a pitchpole/capsize ?? -
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Posted: Dec 11, 2014 - 02:54 PM
The problem with an electric trolling motor is: (i have one i have used on my jonboat)
they don't have a lot /enough power to push you upwind in heavy air (your mast/sails are a a lot of windage)
they are heavy and require a very heavy battery. where ya gonna store that on a h18? - oh yea, beachcats spray a lot of water and get salt water everywhere .... not very good for batteries.
the problem with anything but a brand new gas engine is ... they add weight to the stern of your boat, require gas and gas cans (thus defeating the point of being on a beach cat), require spare parts and tools be carried, are not reliable enough for regular use as ocean going gear (for me) and will be a pollution source and/or expensive paperweight WHEN you capsize
If you are a marine fabricator, or close, and have the facilities to fabricate your own gear, that's awesome. Go for it. Most don't and most home-made plywood/pvc solutions are not "marine grade" and will likely fail at the worst possible time....
Torqueedos are a fantastic marine motor. I think some are totally waterproof and use the lightweight batteries ... if you have unlimited funds, that is far and away the best choice.
Edited by MN3 on Dec 11, 2014 - 02:56 PM. -
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Posted: Dec 11, 2014 - 09:30 PM
This is what we did for the Catalina trip,cheap and cheerful but pretty strong.I used an epoxy coated 2x6 laid across the rear and held on with modified J bolts.We used a 2 1/2 hp 4 stroke motor.I did um and ah about taking the motor but in the end it was the right decision as it took 4 hours to get over compared to 11 for the guys without a motor.Never any chance of capsize as there was very little wind.When we do this trip again in the summer we may decide not to take a motor as the winds are way more predictable.One of the highlights of the trip was seeing what we believe were blue whales breaching aft of us on the return trip!
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Posted: Dec 11, 2014 - 10:19 PM
I have used a 1.5 hp two stroke and a 5 hp four stroke on my P19. The standard prop pitch on the 1.5 was too aggressive and mostly just stirred the water with little forward motion. Its mount was nothing more than a couple of custom cut delrin blocks allowing the transom clamps to pinch the rear crossbar traveler. When not in use I had planned on simply strapping it to the boom or on the tramp behind the mast. My guess is, with a properly tuned prop it may have reached 3-4 knots.
The 5 hp motor was way too much power and weight (67 lbs). For its mount I used SS tangs, SS turnbuckles, rectangular aluminum tube ~14", SS hardware and SS rivets to fab something off the rear crossbar. The mount was pretty quick to fab and worked well, but that much weight aft was too much. Freeze this at around 24 seconds for a look.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uaviVb5abSQ
I think it did around 8 knots or so.
My reasons for a motor were based on making a 25 mile channel crossing to Santa Cruz Island and sailing during the winter months where winds around here can get fickle. Definitely could have used one for the Catalina trip last month with a 12 hr crossing going there and a 10 hr crossing back. Right now I'm searching for a 2-3 hp motor no more than 35 lbs and figure a speed of 4-5 knots is all I need. The mount will be similar to what Carl made for the H18 he and Geno took to Catalina. Since the H18 hull has a lip on its deck, he spanned a 2x6 across the hulls behind the rear crossbar and fab'd a clamping mechanism to catch its underside. Worked out great, cheap, quick, simple, easy to install/remove and clean installation. For day sailing I think a mount like this would be ok as any requirement to shift CG can be accommodated. On a boat traveling with camping gear, it may be best to move the mount in front of the mast crossbar. There's so little hull volume aft, I noticed the H18 transoms inches above the waterline and Carl told me the motor ingested water a couple of times (maybe just mounted too low). This type of mount is so easy to build It could be easily modified to fit forward or aft. At the very least something like this could be used to test where the motor fits best before investing in a more involved mount.
I took a look at electric propulsion and its advantages and disadvantages. For me the numbers didn't work out. If I'm half way across the channel 10 miles or so out, how much battery would be needed and what speed could be expected. Even at say 3 knots the weight in lead acid batteries exceeds that of an outboard with way more hp. If you intend on traveling short, in harbor, distances this is a great solution. With the use of LIpo batts you may be able to shrink the package enough to fit down a cats hull hatch.
If you want to travel at low speeds under 3 knots, you may need one hp. 1 hp= 745 Watts. On a 24V system an electric motor will draw about 30 Amps (745W/24V= 31A). 30 Amps X 1 hr = 30 amp hrs @ 24V. If you used two standard blue top optima batts (38 lbs each) that would give you a bit over an hour of runtime. A couple of motorcycle sized batts maybe 15-20 min. For Lipo batts you may need three 5.8 AH seven cell packs at $80 each for 20 min.
Want to go faster, hp required increases by the square of the speed. 6 knots will cost you more than 4 times the batt capacity. Electric propulsion quickly gets out of control with speed. -
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Posted: Dec 11, 2014 - 10:36 PM
Deluxe motor setup, Cheata mount and Torqeedo (this is a $2,000+ setup)
Cruise and Carry on custom mount (kind of thing you can do if you are a machinist)
P18 mods
http://www.thebeachcats.c…pictures?g2_itemId=17934
That Cruise and Carry used to be the hot setup but I don't think they are available.
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Posted: Dec 12, 2014 - 05:16 AM
Look what you spend on quality sail, rigging etc.
This motor just makes sense, at least to me.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u4Bx8yhCn5s -
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Posted: Dec 12, 2014 - 10:52 AM
looks cool but that's the cost of my boat almost. I'll save that for the $10K boat...but there's some nice engineering involved with the mounts to pick up some ideas for a cheaper setup on my Prindle 19. How much is that Torqueedo w/o mount? I looked at the video, it's great that their engines are submersible and solar chargeable. That goes a long way towards justifying the high cost....be interesting to see how the rates of charging and depleting at low speeds add up to net depletion or charge of the battery under a few real life scenarios...e.g. 20nm trip with average sunlight, no wind, no current etc...
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Marek
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Posted: Dec 12, 2014 - 11:50 AM
I feel like I should add a comment onto this topic for the benefit of future beachcat owners who come up with the idea of adding an engine to their catamaran.
Just because it is possible and others have done it, doesn't mean it's a good idea for you. Just know that it is VERY RARE for a beachcat type sailboat to have an outboard motor and not at all customary.
That being said, the ones who DO end up using a motor on their catamarans (not just trying it, but using it over time) have good reasons that justify the cost, complications, and weight involved.
The most common reason I've seen over the years for motorizing your beachcat is having to launch from a ramp into a large crowded marina where it is pretty much impossible to safely sail your way to open water because of the maze of docks and breakwaters. If a paddle or two just won't cut it and if the choice is carrying an outboard vs not sailing at all...
Another reason might be sailing in an area of unpredictable calms where at any time you might be sitting still. In that case a motor would allow you more freedom to roam farther knowing you can get back. Although I wouldn't be comfortable using a gas motor for this purpose because my experience with small gas engines is they always fail to start when you really need them!
For sailors new to beachcats, please learn everything about SAILING your boat first before you decide you NEED a motor.
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Posted: Dec 12, 2014 - 12:15 PM
BTW, despite my being new to cats, I have had a situation where the paddle got me out of the harbor and into the open water. The winds were light and coming from directly ahead of me. The paddle was more than enough in that instance. Actually, I was amazed at how well the paddle does work with a cat. -
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Posted: Dec 12, 2014 - 12:40 PM
I second all that Damon says about motors on cats, they're not a substitute for sailing skills. And in my exp1erience, an 18 footer is the smallest boat I'd consider putting one on, it's additional weight in not a good spot, if we're talking off the rear beam. I can be compensated for to some degree by keeping crew weight a bit more forward.
All that said, I've put 2 and 3 hp two strokes on half a dozen cats, mostly 20 footers or bigger. I keep the boats deep in a protected bay on Flathead Lake in NW Montana, and it blows 10 to 15 out on the main lake nearly every morning in the summer, and I want some of it. So I motor fifteen minutes out to pressure regularly. And having a motor emboldens me to sail great distances from home, knowing I have the ability to get home should it shut off. Which it often does, I'm often chasing wind that might only last and hour or two, and having a motor increases the number of sailing hours I get in dramatically.
I had an older 2 hp Evinrude on a Mag 18 that would push the boat a 5.5 kts in flat water, not really enough power to maneuver reliably in big air, sailing skills needed there. I generally have a sheet metal/machine shop fabricate a mount for me, usually under a couple hundred bucks. The arm that extends from the mounting plate to the nearly vertical motor mounting piece needs to be hinged at the beam end so that the motor can be raised beyond the normal motor tilt, otherwise the lower unit will drag frequently. The design I've settled on has the arm in a short channel at the mounting plate that contains the arm, that I can slip a wooden wedge into when I pull the motor(and arm) up. The wedge stays in place with the weight of the motor on it, and is secured to the mounting plate with a small line so I don't lose it when the motor is deployed. The wedge holds the arm a bit above horizontal, enough to get the lower unit horizontal, which is enough to clear most waves. This puts the powerhead pretty close to the tiller crossbar, so some diligence is required when flipping the tiller extension from side to side when tacking.
I generally use 3 hp two strokes on the SC20s and the ARC22, which also produce 5 to 6 kts of boatspeed in calm conditions. I can often find lightly used 10 year old two strokes trolling motors for three to four hundred dollars, and they seem to last forever in this kind of service. I used a 2 hp Honda on a 20 once, liked that it was quieter, but it was a bit slower, and noticeably heavier. Newer models might be lighter. All the 3hp and smaller outboards I've used have had integral gas tanks, containing 1 to 2 quarts, with run times around 40 minutes at 3/4 throttle. I have strapped a 1 gal can to the tramp for long distance travel/delivery. I often use my ipod and ear defenders over the earbuds for longer stretches.
I've toyed with ways to mount a motor off the front beam, as many of the small outboards rotate 360 degrees(no reverse on most, some have a neutral), but have never mastered storing them in the raised position in a way that doesn't interfere with jib/jibsheets. Might be possible, certainly a better place to carry the weight.
When capsized, the motor is well clear of the water. I did turtle the ARC at the very end of the season last year( quite a story in itself), and after rescue, pulled off the carb and cleaned it, drained the fuel tank(integral), pulled the spark plug and ran lots of oil thru the cylinder, and it runs just fine now.
So motors add to the complexity of the sailing experience on a cat, but if your circumstances cry out for one, they can be managed. Just don't expect them to get you out of trouble in a blow, they're not enough power to overcome all the windage a cat offers, even with the sails down.
I found a few shots of one fabricated for the SC20 here:
http://www.thebeachcats.com/pictures?g2_itemId=112360
Dave
Edited by davefarmer on Dec 13, 2014 - 08:11 AM. -
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Posted: Dec 12, 2014 - 01:19 PM
Dave,
Thanks! Great info from someone experienced with the issue.
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Posted: Dec 12, 2014 - 01:53 PM
http://www.ioutboardmotors.com/
Has anyone had experience with this company?
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Posted: Dec 12, 2014 - 02:15 PM
Lots of locals snicker and kid me about carrying a paddle but ... I always have a paddle or 2 onboard.
I keep one tucked under my hiking straps, slightly jammed into the space between my tramp and beam so it doesn't move around or slide off while flying a hull (or capsize) - i have a collapsible one in my hull incase i have crew to help paddle or a fellow sailor around me needs it.
makes getting off the lee of an island easier, esp in low tide
makes avoiding non movable objects much easier and less painful and expensive (if there is no wind and heavy tide)
makes paddling back to the beach when a storm sucks all the wind out for the evening.
That being said, one night many years ago i got beat back to shore by my buddy zack - paddling with his cooler lid.
Edited by MN3 on Dec 12, 2014 - 02:17 PM.
