Hi, I am preparing for a 900nm adventure race where there are no rules except the boat cannot be fitted with a motor. The first team to the line wins whether it is a rowing sled, kayak or sailboat. The race is mostly inter-coastal but will have some stretches of open ocean and although you are aloud to stop as much as you want or need, I would like to reduce the stops to a minimum. So, I reckon a beach cat would be very competitive! Although I have heaps of sailing and racing experience on ocean racing boats and skiffs, I have very little beach cat experience...
So here is my question; what are the best cats to look at purchasing?
Criteria
- crew and gear weight of ~450lbs
- Budget ~6k
- must be efficient upwind
- very good in light wind
- main must be able to be modified for a reef
- light enough to be rowed, possibly for days on end
- handle open ocean conditions
Also, if anybody knows of boats for sale in the pacific NW or British Columbia let me know.
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Phil W
Nacra 570
Victoria BC
www.mausails.com
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What are the best cats for very long distance racing?
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Posted: Jan 17, 2015 - 03:49 PM
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Posted: Jan 17, 2015 - 03:58 PM
Then it is AC72
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rjERHJUTLh4
If you flexible on your criteria, that is
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Jack B
Hobie 17
BC, Canada
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Posted: Jan 17, 2015 - 07:05 PM
That's a lot of flex on the $6k budget
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Tim
81 Hobie 16
87 Nacra 5.7
Austin, TX
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Posted: Jan 17, 2015 - 08:27 PM
I think you want to look for a 20' boat, Nacra 6.0, Supercat 20, Mystere 6.0 or Tornado. I've seen all of those boats for $6K or less, in serviceable condition. Reefing could be engineered on any of these three. The Nacra and T might go to weather, and do light air a bit better than the SC. The SC probably has the most buoyancy/load capacity of the 3, pretty solid construction with a well engineered/durable rudder system. The N has an 8'6" beam, the T is 10', the SC12', with attendant advantages and disadvantages of each width. I've no direct experience with the Mystere, but I think it's well regarded. It might be the most scarce, and have the least parts availablility.
Any of these boats for under $6K is gonna be 20 to 30 yrs old, and thus will need to gone over meticulously for what you want to do. Which sounds grand!
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Posted: Jan 18, 2015 - 01:46 AM
I-20 or Nacra 6.0 w/spin
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Doug Klem
Pensacola , Fl.
Blade F16
Prindle 18-2 w/spin
Prindle 18-2 x 3
Prindle 19 MX
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Posted: Jan 18, 2015 - 05:25 AM
Let me surprise everyone and suggest getting a Hobie 21 SE. The H21 has a very stable "footprint", comfortable wing seats, can carry about whatever crew or gear you need and spring loaded retactable dagger boards.
For long distance sailing, you really want a comfortable boat and the wing seats will give you the best ride.
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Bill 404 21SE
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Posted: Jan 18, 2015 - 10:02 AM
Yeah, the H21 might be a wonderful choice for your needs, but start looking now! Not a lot of them, and finding one under $6k will be tough. The wings would be a great addition for comfort. With the N/I 20s, there are more of them to choose from, but those under your limit will need close inspection. You could also consider Hobie 20 Miracles.
I'm a bit concerned about your budget for the boat. I think you can find a decent one of these twenty footers we've suggested for $6K, but I think you're going to need to spend additional money to really put them in top condition for distance ocean sailing. New standing rigging would be high on my list, and the sails need to be very sound/near new.
A spin would be a great addition, std on the N/I20, but not a lot of these other $6K boats will have one. And adding it would be a minimum of around $2K if you're a good scrounge.
Watch the classifieds here, as well as Catsailor.com, and CL. And return here with questions and updates, you've got us interested now.
Edited by davefarmer on Jan 18, 2015 - 08:04 AM. -
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Posted: Jan 18, 2015 - 11:48 AM
BC cat market is very tight. There is always an older Hobie 16 for sale, but if you hunting for a specific boat, it may take you a year or two to get it.
Make sure to keep your eye on
CL
http://www.kijiji.ca/
http://www.hobiecat.com/forums/viewforum.php?f=52
and If you willing to drive, California may be a better bet.
Edited by jackb on Jan 18, 2015 - 02:34 PM.
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Jack B
Hobie 17
BC, Canada
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Posted: Jan 18, 2015 - 12:06 PM
I believe a buddy of mine is selling his 2007 Hobie miracle.... It's Phil and Beverly Collins nationals champion Hobie 20. As you can expect, it's prob the newest and best condition Hobie 20 on earth, as well as the fastest. Has TONs of extras and looks like new. Think he's asking $5500 or $6k
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Tim Grover
1996 Hobie Miracle 20
Two Hobie 14's
1983 G-Cat Restored
Memphis TN / North Mississippi
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Posted: Jan 18, 2015 - 06:13 PM
Thanks for all the advice. It sounds like a boat in the 20ft range is the way to go. The 6k budget can be a little flexible depending on how far I have to transport it back home to BC, so a somewhat local boat would be nice. But, yeah Cali, Ontario and even Texas is possible. Florida is a bit far.
There is a Nacra 570 for sale close by for a good price, but I have doubts about the suitability... Maybe a little small, although I read the volume is comparable to boats a little larger. But my main concern would be the lack of boards. How much does a skeg boat suffer upwind, i.e. would I have a big loss in upwind VMG?
So I think the key will be finding the right platform and then modifying it. Fabricating custom wings, adding a spin kit if needed, etc. From the looks of it, A spin kit could be made from a carbon windsurfing mast and a few bits here and there, meaning the main cost would be a used spi. Am I missing something here?
The hobie 21 may be getting a bit heavy for serious rowing...
Where is this boat located?
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Phil W
Nacra 570
Victoria BC
www.mausails.com
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Posted: Jan 18, 2015 - 06:25 PM
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Posted: Jan 19, 2015 - 12:06 AM
The Hobie miracle 20 is about 45 min south of Memphis TN. For what it's worth, Hobie 18 magnum wings can be installed on a Hobie 20. I did it to mine. Required three hours of time plus the cost of used wings to add them. Rides like a fast Cadillac with tons of room. Weighs 450# w wings before people but its very buoyant and forgiving, carries weight well and likes to be pushed hard. I'd think you'd have to spend at least $15k or more to get a better 20 footer less than 10 years old.
It is a long way away from you but perhaps someone would drive it up to you for a certain price? Uship perhaps?
Edited by fxloop on Jan 19, 2015 - 05:47 AM.
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Tim Grover
1996 Hobie Miracle 20
Two Hobie 14's
1983 G-Cat Restored
Memphis TN / North Mississippi
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Posted: Jan 19, 2015 - 07:43 AM
Spins can be added to any of these boats with a modest amount of effort, with good results. I've used carbon windsurf masts for the pole numerous times, for a 20' boat you need about 13' or more, so I generally mate two lower mast sections. Used spins are available, fewer from 20 footers than the more common F18s, but they're out there. You'd like to find one fairly lightly used, they definitely have a limited life. A quality snuffer is about $500, and not real easy to fabricate cheaply. Maybe you can deck launch for your needs. Hlyd, sheets, blks and cleat will be another two to three hundred, depending on how much you can find used.
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Posted: Jan 19, 2015 - 10:02 AM
mystere 6.0 xl
10' beams with wings
extra width for extra stability, wings for area to sleep/stow gear
mystere is much more flexible in shallows with it's center boards (vs dagger boards all the other 20' cats have)
word to the wise....
start sailing a cat as soon as possible, they handle differently than monohulls and you will need to learn the differences and how to trap out -
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Posted: Jan 19, 2015 - 10:03 AM
PS what is this race?
how can a kayak ever compete with a catamaran without any handycaps? -
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Posted: Jan 19, 2015 - 10:23 AM
Are you serious about this requirement? If so, then I think all beach cats are out. Rowing one of these boats really doesn't work well at all - there is no comfortable place to sit and paddle, the boats are really too wide for oars (not to mention there isn't really any good place to store the oars), and rowing 400-500lbs of boat and equipment is going to be exhausting. The good news is that these boats are so efficient that generally speaking, any wind over about 3 to 5mph sailing the boat is going to be much faster than anything being rowed.
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Posted: Jan 19, 2015 - 04:09 PM
Its the R2K race, its a 900mile race to Alaska. Its totally open for rules there are several farrier type trimarans and at least one 30' Cat that I know of going for the line honors, I think it should be considered more of an adventure for most of the competitors. -
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Posted: Jan 19, 2015 - 04:10 PM
I agree, I cant think of any way to make rowing a cat tolerable for very long. -
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Posted: Jan 19, 2015 - 04:38 PM
I have thought about this while considering an everglades challenge event. I have not implemented it but if I were to try to row a cat this would be my starting point.
I would add a tang to the front to for the mast about 10-12 feet up which would act as attachment point for a secondary trapeeze setup. Possibly an adjustable one. Foot straps would be added to the front of the front cross member centered about the mast. Removable oarlock mounts would be fiberglassed into the hulls forward of the front crossbar to permit a good purchase for rowing. One would row from trap harness over open water in front of the mast . Oars would be 8 - 10 ft long or more and would have to be modular for storage under the tramp or between the hulls in front of the tramp. This configuration would make the rowing effort as efficient as possible, keep the bows down to help the boat track better, and minimize the impact to sailing. -
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Posted: Jan 19, 2015 - 08:06 PM
Yep, you guessed it. Race to Alaska, which leads to the need of moving the boat in no wind. In that area in June there can definitely be times of no wind, and this could be the advantage of a beach cat over some of the other bigger sailboats. I haven't quite got it figured out, but I think rowing it can be done (I like the idea above) In times of no wind I can scull my 27ft aluminum sloop with a sculling oar, so I should be able to move a boat 12 times lighter... Alternatively I have been thinking of a pedaling station connected to a flexible drive shaft and a propeller... I think that it needs to be able to be done by one person so that the crew can switch off and get rest. More ideas are welcome!
So I still have the question of how much loss in upwind VMG will a skeg boat like a Nacra 570 have compared to a boat with boards???
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Phil W
Nacra 570
Victoria BC
www.mausails.com
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