I can get my Hobie 16 to go a good bit faster (maybe 3 mph tops) just pumping the rudder back and forth, with the blades about halfway up, than I ever could with a paddle. The most I have ever done is a whole hour sculling back to the marina when the wind died and the sun went down. Any longer would require taking turns, and requires being in good physical shape. I was sore for several days after.
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Small sailboat designer, builder, and Cat Sailor. 8' Keelboat, Hobie Fox,Prindle 16.
Rear Commodore, Utah Lake Yacht Club - Mostly sail Hobie Fox (Formula-20)
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What are the best cats for very long distance racing?
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Posted: Jan 19, 2015 - 09:10 PM
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Posted: Jan 20, 2015 - 07:50 AM
I think it would be safe to say that the 570 will not go upwind as well as a daggerboard boat, and that it's going to be hard to quantify. But coupled with it's lower load carrying capability, it wouldn't be my first choice.
Any chance you could adapt Hobies pedal propulsion system to a cat? -
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Posted: Jan 23, 2015 - 06:07 PM
Are you anticipating shallow water needs? -
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Posted: Jan 23, 2015 - 08:14 PM
No shallow water needs, although there is a real possibility of hitting deadheads (floating logs just under the surface) while sailing at night, which I have done with quite a few keel boats in the area.
I love the pedal power idea! I have been looking into it and it seems I could get a crank and connect it to a right angle gearbox, then attach a flexible driveshaft and propeller. Maybe the whole thing could pivot into and out of the water when needed.
I am just about to sell my 27ft aluminum sloop that I single handed to Australia, then I'm headed back home to find a cat!
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Phil W
Nacra 570
Victoria BC
www.mausails.com
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Posted: Jan 26, 2015 - 08:15 AM
info on the everglades challenge if anyone is interested.
the Everglades Challenge is an unsupported, expedition style adventure race for kayaks, canoes, and small boats. The distance is roughly 300 nautical miles depending on your course selection. There is a time limit of 8 days or less. Your safety and well being are completely up to you. - http://www.watertribe.com…nts/evergladeschallenge/
I go down every year to the start of the race on prep day and check out all the vessels. neat stuff
Edited by MN3 on Jan 26, 2015 - 08:18 AM. -
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Posted: Jan 26, 2015 - 08:25 AM
from time to time, I paddle my boat a few miles to my home beach after a storm sucks out all the wind and i dont feel like waiting a few hours for a knot or 2 to restart
It sucks but is do-able.
I sit on a bow, forward of the beam and i use my canoe paddle (that i store on my tramp, at the rear beam).
the trick is to get the tiller to stand still and track straight. this can be done with line or bungee (but risky so have a good quick release knot in place).
I also have a small collapsible paddle in my front bow incase i have crew onboard. The boat is pretty efficient with crew helping paddle and steer (one stays forward / one aft).
Sitting like that hurts after a while, perhaps a SUP paddle would be good here - exp if you have wings and you have a place to stow it (under a wing) -
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Posted: Jan 26, 2015 - 08:32 AM
I would not do this on my boat
this adds stress to under-supported areas of your rudders and risk breaking in 1/2 or breaking at the head. I went through many sets of stock hobie 16 rudders
this also adds stress to unsupported parts of your transum risking hull cracking and hull failure
this will add stress to all attachment hardware and boat and will worm out fiberglass/epoxy holes,rivets,bolts, etc
all this wair-and-tair on a boat can be eliminated with a paddle tied to the side of your tramp or across a beam/mast
Edited by MN3 on Jan 26, 2015 - 08:33 AM. -
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Posted: Jan 26, 2015 - 06:58 PM
Good to know. I wondered about that and so have tried to limit how much I use that. I'll definitely work much harder in the future to make sure I don't have to do that.
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Small sailboat designer, builder, and Cat Sailor. 8' Keelboat, Hobie Fox,Prindle 16.
Rear Commodore, Utah Lake Yacht Club - Mostly sail Hobie Fox (Formula-20)
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Posted: Jan 27, 2015 - 12:05 AM
Wow
So many things to consider for this event. I'd stay away from a peddle prop solution. Propeller propulsion requires so many critical considerations to do it right you'd need an engineer. Paddling seems like a much easier and perhaps more efficient solution anyway. The issue of one person motivating the boat while the other rests may not be better than two working together. Consider the dead weight the resting party becomes.
What is the probability that both of you work together until enough wind comes along when one can rest? Beach cats need only the slightest winds to far outpace any rowing/peddling effort. If you both row together, can you set up a sculling arrangement taking advantage of leg, back and arm muscles thus spreading out the work load and again decreasing the amount of dead weight just using legs would do?
I thought the power required to move a boat through the water was by the square of its speed, but recently heard its by the cube! The lesson here is reduce weight as much as possible and lower wetted area and induced drag. Keeping the transoms out of the water as much as possible may be a big help. On my recent trip to Catalina I noticed the added gear weight of 130-150 lbs sinking the transoms more than I expected. Find a way to secure gear forward of the crossbar.
Consider a Prindle 19 for your adventure. I keep mine next to a Hobie Miracle 20 and the P19 is actually a little longer and possibly lighter? For whatever rowing/peddling setup you decide it has rotating centerboards which may stay out of the way more. I bought mine for $2500 in decent condition and it came with a spin. You could fashion a pole from a 2" thin wall aluminum tube similar to mine without the unnecessary extras keeping cost down. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=07EA0r3vpNo -
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Posted: Jan 28, 2015 - 04:05 PM
As it turns out I am an Engineer, so I think the pedal propulsion is possible, although I am not convinced that it is the most efficient. spfx, you're probably right to think that two people rowing with long sweeps will be the fastest, but to do it right it will need to have a seat on a track system so that, like you said, one can take advantage of leg back and arm muscles. Because I am a sailor first and foremost any system must not impede the sailing ability of the boat and not clutter the boat to much. Once I find the right boat I will starting designing some kind of system and keep you'll informed of how it takes shape.
That leads me to the boat. With the US/CA dollar gap getting greater and greater and my funds in CAD its starting only to make sense to buy a boat in Canada. That limits my options tremendously! Right now there are two boats within a reasonable distance from the west coast. A hobie 18 and a Nacra 570, with the nacra being about 1000 dollars higher. Both lack a spi. Assuming both boats have adequate sails, in good condition structurally and both will get their rigging replaced, which is the more suitable boat??
I have been thinking about options for a spinnaker/genniker/code 0 system and have thought about putting one on a continuous roller furling and generally keeping it hoisted unless the weather is really nasty, in which case it could be lowered and lashed to the tramp. Has anyone done this, or have thoughts about it? It looks like the Hobie pearl does this...
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Phil W
Nacra 570
Victoria BC
www.mausails.com
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Posted: Jan 29, 2015 - 05:09 AM
A good friend of mine had a continuous rolling furler with a code 0. This was hoisted only for use and was lowered when not needed (to avoid the windage) I dont think you will get this to work with a spinnaker as there is to much materiel to furl, you will have a huge mess of sail if you try
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Posted: Jan 29, 2015 - 07:17 AM
+1
I had this exact setup, but finding one with wings is a needle in a haystack. Mine had modified Hobie wings.
http://www.thebeachcats.c…59e2c082aa8c1809f70c99b3
http://www.thebeachcats.c…ictures?g2_itemId=109394
There are a handful for sale right now, BUT, they are all in Quebec, not exactly a quick or cheap road trip.
http://www.kijiji.ca/b-quebec/catamaran/k0l9001
I would give up on the "Rowing, possibly for days" idea. Yes, it can be calm on the inside passage during that time, but it is rarely dead calm. A 2-3mph zephyr will move a cat far better than two can paddle.
With the exception of localized breeze, (I'm thinking outflow from Howe Sound etc) your predominant winds should be westerly, giving you reaching conditions. Of course you know crossing Hecate Strait might be as hairy as any ocean passage.
The one thing I would be most concerned about, & so far not mentioned, is the climate. The water is pretty bloody cold that time of year. I have sailed for hours in a cold drizzle, helming a 38' leaner up to Hakai, & Desolation. It would have been misery on an open Cat.
I'm assuming you will go dry suit? Or have your skin rot off after 2 weeks of constant wet suit. I would favour something like a Stilleto 27, with the small cabins to sleep/get out of the weather. There were a couple for sale around or west of Chicago.
The other consideration is not wanting to stop. You will have to, & this means possibly beaching/camping. As you know, the Wet Coast can be pretty isolated, with rough terrain. You would need a boat that will handle some bumps, yet be light enough to haul up a gravel beach.
For me, that would rule out the lighter fragile boats.
I wouldn't get hung up on the skeg boats perceived upwind performance, if you get weight forward & the lee hull into the water, you don't loose very much. It has more to do with the skill of the skipper.
I have hit floating logs, twice, once at speed on my 5.7, with no ill effects.
A few Cats have reefing, I have sailed the 5.7 in as high as 30mph(not fun, survival). If you get into a real blow, drop the main & lash it to the tramp, a 5.7 will still go 11mph on jib alone. The 570 may not be the "perfect" boat, but it may come down to what is available, & that would be a very close third behind my 20'x10' winged Mystere. 1st would be something with the cuddies in the hulls.
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Hobie 18 Magnum
Dart 15
Mystere 6.0XL Sold Was a handful solo
Nacra 5.7
Nacra 5.0
Bombardier Invitation (Now officially DEAD)
Various other Dock cluttering WaterCrap
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Posted: Jan 29, 2015 - 08:39 AM
Hobie Gary made lightweight beachwheels out of pvc and boat bumpers to pull his cats up catalina island -
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Posted: Jan 29, 2015 - 11:41 AM
Jan 29-2015
Near Everett WA
I'm thinking of entering the Race to Alaska this June. I have a prindle 19 .. stock. So, basically would rely 100% on wind, and a good anchor system for areas of currents during times of dead air . I keep envisioning being sent into the rocks and having these egg shell hulls destroyed and then walking out the canadian bush. I think two sailors could do some limited paddling from both sides of the boat if needed.
4 months to the race, so time to practice. looking to find another sailor for this ... event. Not sure about the return trip. Sail back, trailer it, sell it.. give it away...
If the winds are favorable.... there is a real possibility of winning this $10,000 prize... -
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Posted: Jan 29, 2015 - 03:56 PM
The Stilleto would have some real load carrying capability, as well as some shelter. If you could find a Reynolds 21 you'd also have both of those qualities. Not a fast boat, and I'd look into stouter standing rigging, and maybe a heavier mast, something like a SC 20 mast. I've seen R21s from $5 to $10 K.
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Posted: Feb 27, 2015 - 11:53 AM
Thanks for all the ideas and recommendations. I just bought a boat! I ended getting a nacra 570 for a great deal from the interior of bc. Now to start sailing and moding the boat. List of projects include; solar system with li ion batts in cross beam. Roller code 0 on pole, and pedal power system! I think i will start a new thread when i start working on the boat.
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Phil W
Nacra 570
Victoria BC
www.mausails.com
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Posted: Feb 27, 2015 - 06:30 PM
Congrats! Can't wait to hear about all your adventures.
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Damon Linkous
1992 Hobie 18
Memphis, TN
How To Create Your Signature
How To Create Your Own Cool Avatar
How To Display Pictures In The Forums.
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Posted: Feb 27, 2015 - 09:50 PM
I've had a furling screacher on a Reynolds 21, Supercat 20, and Flight Risk, a custom 24' cat. All used a Harken small boat furler, with a tapered furling line, so that the line on the drum was 1/8" dyneema, worked well. All the sails were all quite flat, designed specifically for cats, and furled well, providing it could be rolled while blanketed. If it was flogging, it would furl unevenly and too tightly, and there wouldn't be enough line on the drum to wind it all up. Big mess, had to drop it a couple of times in gnarly conditions. Overall a manageable problem. A continuous furled would also solve the problem, but I haven't seen any small enough for boats this size, and if they are made, I'd expect them to be pricey.
They were all laminate sails, which ultimately suffered near the luff where it was furled most tightly. Eventually, maybe 4 or 5 seasons, the mylar began to break down. And when the sails were furled and dropped, I tried to minimize the folding of the rolled sail, as these sharp bends were also hard on the mylar. So I kept the the furled sail aloft most of the time, it was in the way on the tramp. If it was blowing when I left shore I'd drop it and leave it ashore. I sewed a long zippered sock to protect it from uv when parked, the less the sail is handled, the better, in my experience.
The screacher did not work nearly as deep as a spin, but for recreational use, just additional power for light and moderate air, the ease of furling and unfurling was really nice, easier to do solo than snuffing. I really liked them. I'd like to do it again for this SC20 I'm working on. For a while I was finding them lightly used for around $500, but I haven't seen any for sale in quite a while. I suspect one needs to have one built by one of the experienced multihull lofts specifically for the boat. If you really want vmg downwind, a spin is a better choice.
Any one have lines on sails or furlers?
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Posted: Feb 28, 2015 - 03:55 AM
Dave,
Tom at Aquarius has worked out the top down curlers on the ARC22 and the smaller boats as well. I've got a friend who is in the process of getting a system for his SC20 right now. He is using his existing spin he has for his 20 with some slight modifications at the head and tack of the sail. I know someone else who has just about completed this system on his smaller SC, maybe he will chime in.
I'm eagerly watching, maybe that's next up for my 20! Might be a SNU for sale in the future haha
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Mac
Midlands South Carolina
AHPC Viper USA 366
A Cat USA 366
Super Cat 17
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Posted: Feb 28, 2015 - 07:50 PM
Thanks Mac, I too am interested to see how a recut on a snuffed spin will work. I'd think a sail would have to be carefully designed to work with that system.
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