• goodsailing
  
  

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  Posted: Mar 23, 2015 - 11:56 AM

  I installed my goose neck to the mast and rigged everything. The mast rested on a big cooler. Boom was on the tramp. I put the rope that went through the block on the trailer on the tramp. While on the tramp, I hosted the gin pole, (boom) that had all lines connected. I had the side guides connected to the bungie on both sides. I got up on the tramp and hoisted the boom up and put it in the hole of the part I described above. While trying to juggle holding the boom there I tensioned the guide lines so both were equal. The boom was vertical and aligned with the hull. The tramp lines were attached at a point where the side lines were attached. I started to tension the blocks and as soon as everything was tight, my hand still on the boom (gin pole) I gave a little tug. I felt the power of the block start to take purchase. I eased back further.... and as I was looking at the boom position I hadn't noticed the mast lifted off the cooler but began to rotate to starboard. Then the boom tilted. Here I was on the tramp trying to hole the pole verticle and the mast was swinging to the side. The mast hinge broke on one arm and the mast further rotated. It was now laying on the rudder. I lifted the gin pole up and lowered it. Got the mast back on the tramp then the other hinge arm broke. Fortunately I had placed a huge garbage can under the mast. So now the mast was resting on the garbage yet laying unfixed on the front xbeam. I disconnected all the lines and put the boat away.
  
  
  There is absolutely no way one can lift this mast up without some type of rear rigging to keep the mast swinging. Attaching the tramp lines added no value. The boom, blocks and my little goosneck appeared to work. No gin pole needed to be build. Lifting off the cooler works.
  
  Now, after I get the hinge replacement at $50 I'll attempt this again. I'll tie the mast between the hull at the transom to keep the mast from swinging laterally while I get the boom in position and get tension on it to keep it in place. I believe you'll need 2 lines. To hoist, the main line that does the lifting, and another line that will keep the mast aligned at the back of the boat. While pulling the block line to hoist, you'd have to let out the line in the back as the mast goes up etc.
  Then there is the consideration of the mast crutch taking all the stress. I've seen pictures where base of crutch gave way.... perhaps bottom block needs attached to main bottom beam of trailer, not boom crutch above the crank.
  
  Needless to say this is going to take a lot of rope. I had 90' for the main hoist line. Perhaps I could handle the mast with one hand at the rear, keeping it steady, while using the teeth/ hand method to yank the hoist line. This way would eliminate effort, just touching the mast to keep it straight. Much of this is technique... I guess.
  
  This is turning into a time consuming and now costly experiment.
  
  Thanks for all your help. I'm investigating beach wheels so that I can possible work at this while boat is on the ground as suggest above, but carrying a ladder too?
  
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• nacra55
  
  

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  Posted: Mar 23, 2015 - 12:12 PM

  Quote

  Also, if two people raise the mast, where do they stand and what do they do as I really don't see where a second person can help. I already had the mast up as high as a person could hold with the ladder and still couldn't get the mast up past my shoulder while standing on the tramp. Could the foam in the mast be holding water? I drained water out but perhaps the foam is water logged making the mast heavier than what I've seen in the two part video Rigging Hobiecat 18 on Youtube?

  
  
  Foam in the mast? And water? Probably mud too. The mast needs to be clean, dry and water tight. If you do get the mast stepped and get on the water, when you flip, if the mast weighs as much as you say, you will never right the boat especially solo. THIS IS DANGEROUS. Fix your mast before you go any further.
  
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• Andinista
  
  

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  Posted: Mar 23, 2015 - 12:52 PM

  MN3

  
  Edited by MN3 on Mar 23, 2015 - 08:33 AM.

  
  
  About the angle of the boat: It's quite a lot harder to lift the mast if the bows are point up as in the second picture rather than down. This is because you would be holding the mast from a lower point, closer to the base. As you are so close to the lower end of the mast, the difference in lever arm is very significant, more than you would probably think. I learned the hard way lowering the mast on an inclined spot.
  
  
  
  Edited by Andinista on Mar 23, 2015 - 01:21 PM.

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• MN3
  
  

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  Posted: Mar 23, 2015 - 01:22 PM

  Quote

  There is absolutely no way one can lift this mast up without some type of rear rigging to keep the mast swinging. Attaching the tramp lines added no value.

  
  
  it is possible
  i did it all the time with the ez step
  the mast did swing until it was dialed in for me (you use the trap lines, not a tramp line)
  and a friend took out his front window before he had his dialed in

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• Andinista
  
  

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  Posted: Mar 23, 2015 - 01:26 PM

  About getting help to raise or lower the mast, I think that the best option is to have someone pulling a trap wire from the front. Two from each side is a bad idea, one is good help, the same that helps you grab the mast and get started, goes forward and help you raise it. I think it's described this way in the old nacra or prindle manual.
  
  Another advantage of raising or lowering the mast with the boat on a significant angle (bows down) is that it can be held up just by gravity while you get donw and pin the forestay
  
  
  
  Edited by Andinista on Mar 23, 2015 - 01:28 PM.

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• goodsailing
  
  

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  Posted: Mar 23, 2015 - 03:26 PM

  Not available: Incline the boat forward, and additional help. Yes Trapeze lines. They produced no value in keeping the end, top of mast from swinging. At least that is my experience. Here's my next option: run a static line between two rear hulls with a block dead center. Attached by butterfly knot etc. Attach a retrievable line to the mast somehow as you need to get it off there to raise the sail, plus you need to get it back on there, when the mast is up to lower the mast, through the block on the line then forward through the main sheet cleat: Main fact is: there needs to be enough tension on the mast and the pole to keep everything lined up and stable prior to raising. Mast can't rotate and neither can gin pole. The whole rig must just stand there, without movement, prior to lift. Mast needs elevated prior to lift, otherwise downward pressure of front line will push gin pole to the side. That's what happened, then without the mast tethered at the rear it swung.
  
  If you had two people holding the trapeze lines perpendicular to the mast on each side might, and I say might, keep the mast from swinging pending if two people could keep constant equal pressure, otherwise if one pulled more than the other, mast would swing. Being away from the end of the mast, one might not see lateral movement etc. The mast hinge broke at less than half distance from hull to center hull cleat so it must stay absolutely straight. I supposed you must have worked for the circus putting up tents and trapeze wires to know all about what the heck is going on here.
  
  Not including wind forces.
  
  Thanks for you help and your following along. We'll get there.. believe me. Work stopped until mast hinge shows up.
  
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• goodsailing
  
  

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  Posted: Mar 23, 2015 - 03:46 PM

  Quote

  friend took out his front window before he had his dialed in

  And he must have broke the hinge because it can't go that far. Lucky I didn't break the ears off the bottom plug. As you'll remember: I couldn't get the plug out! I wonder if the hinge metal is softer than plug. That hinge was bubble gum metal, that flaky silvery stuff.
  
  
  
  Edited by goodsailing on Mar 23, 2015 - 03:47 PM.
  
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• MN3
  
  

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  Posted: Mar 23, 2015 - 06:10 PM

  His was a supercat 17
  

  Quote

  And he must have broke the hinge because it can't go that far.

  
  
  my mast would swing the more i raised it.
  i would lower it and adjust the guy lines (whatever side it swung to was too tight
  
  0nly took me about 4 hours to dial it in in the fl sun
  but once it was set up it was fine
  
  PS if you can get a helper.. i think the easiest is to have him/her get on the tramp with you (boat can be on ground or trailer) and both of you pick up the mast and walk it fowrard
  when it is up, one of you go forward and pin (or secure) the forstay
  
  on our beach when we get a helper, we tie a bowline around the forestay and give them a long line to help PULL when we lift the mast out of the trailer craddle (sterns towards trunk on trailer)

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• DamonLinkous
  
  

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  Posted: Mar 23, 2015 - 06:43 PM

  Goodsailing,
  
  I feel for you I really do. Trying to get this figured out completely alone by random people's written suggestions and some videos is tough.
  
  And just to let you know, in the 20+ years I've sailed Hobie 18's I've broken quite a few mast hinge castings. The local Hobie dealer jokes they have a standing order for them just for me.
  
  I really wish you had someone who could walk you through this in person, with an experienced hand around you'd have it figured out in no time, rather than trying to invent a method for something that's been done untold numbers of times before.
  
  I'll share my first time mast raising story, the say misery loves company.
  
  I'd never owned a catamaran before I bought that first Hobie 18. I bought it well-used but good sailing shape from the local dealer. The dealer gives me a copy of the Hobie 18 Assembly Manual (or I think sold it to me) and away I go to the lake on a Wednesday.
  
  There is no one else around and I've never even seen a Hobie 18 fully rigged.
  
  Five hours later I've got things put together (I think) and ready to raise the mast.
  
  Did I mention there was no one else around?
  
  I went through this whole mental process of how it would go and ended up "inventing" this method to raise the mast alone. (it didn't actually occur to me that I should have help, since the dealer assured me I could single hand the boat)
  
  1. Drove the boat over to the steep launch ramp and pointed the boat down the ramp.
  
  2. Used a PFD to cushion rear beam and connected mast hinge to mast base, that leaves 20 feet of the mast unsupported behind the boat, quite a bit of pressure on the hinge pin, but doable if you are gentle.
  
  3. Tied an extra line onto the end of the forestay, and ran it forward around something on my vehicles trailer hitch and back onto the tramp where I could get to it.
  
  3. Stood on the tramp beside the mast, next to the rear beam.
  
  4. Dead lifted the mast up to shoulder height (about six feet) and then walked forward pushing the mast the rest of the way doing my best imitation of the Iwo Jima Memorial. Here is where the severe bow-down angle of the boat really paid off because once I got the mast past 45 degrees it got easier instead of harder to raise. And once it was up it was actually leaning naturally forward against the shrouds.
  
  5. With mast up I simply reached down and reeled in the line that was attached to the fore-stay and tied it off loosely to the mast. So now the boat had a temporary fore-stay and I could climb down.
  
  6. Now comes the hard part... I completely underestimated how difficult it is for one person to connect the forestay adjuster to the roller furler. With the furler already attached to the bows you have to use one hand to raise the furler to height, one hand to bring the forestay adjuster down to it, and the other hand to insert the clevis pin.
  
  7. Drop the clevis pin and then the ring ding, spend quite a bit of time looking for it since it rolled down the hill and blends in with the rough asphalt launch ramp.
  
  8. Finally give up and wave down a ranger cruising through the area and get him to provide the extra hands needed. It was getting dark so I think he just wanted me out of the area.
  
  That's all there is to it!
  
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• goodsailing
  
  

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  Posted: Mar 23, 2015 - 07:07 PM

  Helpers not available.
  Incline not available.
  Objective: raise mast by oneself, with common materials. The less common materials the better: ladder, y support etc. Cooler works, diy gooseneck for boom pin works.
  The existing boom and blocks work. The sheet is too short so you need longer line. Lucky as former climber I have rope.
  
  An arborist, who deals with falling limbs above would know how to construct this...,
  
  The oscillation of the mast top will be most dramatic the lower it is, when shrouds have less effect. It is this point that the mast needs controlled. If you run with the sheet, hauling the gin pole down, the oscillation diminishes as the mast is raised. I'm almost thinking straddling mast , or tying it off, while you fix the pole, then handle the mast to keep it straight, and you pull the sheet/teeth-it , while holding the mast I would be most effective. I can lift the mast. I can't lift he mast to my shoulder while standing on the tramp. The diamond wires are in the way etc. Bounciness of the tramp cause ill footing. So if I can provide mechanical leverage to get the mast up high enough to shoulder it, then I'm home free, I just push it up. I probably won't need the leverage once I get it on my shoulder. I suppose I'm looking at 30 degrees travel that I need help, hence the gin pole.
  
  I think the video up there of the Hobie 21 show he ran with the sheet... the faster it raises the faster the oscillation diminishes. Hinge would probable never break when mast is up 45 degrees. Only break below that. The mast becomes more stable the higher it gets. At low point is most problematic. You've see cranes, little happens up high, its when weights are swinging wildly down low the problems occur. No doubt proper lines, and technique, are sought.
  The mast is stable on your shoulder. Getting to that point is the problem.
  
  Yea, getting it dialed in...
  
  
  
  Edited by goodsailing on Mar 23, 2015 - 07:10 PM.
  
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• DamonLinkous
  
  

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  Posted: Mar 23, 2015 - 07:30 PM

  Funny, just stumbled across this Hobie 18 mast raising video, not sure if it's been posted in this thread yet or now. It's pretty much how I describe above.
  
  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dl7kZOQ5WQk
  
  My story about raising a mast solo for the first time (and nearly the last) above happened in 1991, (before Youtube and even before the Web) this video is from 2010. Some things get invented over and over. He does it in a flat parking lot, it helps to start with a really loose rig, put the shroud in the very top hole of their adjusters to give yourself as much break as possible.
  
  Thing is, in his video there are lots of people walking around in the background, I'd just grab a few strangers to help.
  
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• goodsailing
  
  

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  Posted: Mar 24, 2015 - 03:27 AM

  Quote

  That's all there is to it!

  
  I can tell you I'm really appreciative of all the tips.
  I've watched the video you posted a lot. It's the heave part and getting around the diamond wire to put the mast on the shoulder is the crux. Yes an incline would help, after through the crux, but it's the crux that is the stumbling point. The life jacket was worthless for me. You will note in the video the mast is still on the rudder bar anyway. I tied a cooler there as it will move out of position if not tied to the tramp. I've also left the roller furling unit attached to the chain plate so that it is already held up to hook the two side wires once I got the mast up should that occur. Everything but the crux, can be accomplished pretty easy. Finding a dropped pin, not so easy. Then there are safety issues. Would you get under a suspended beam just above the crux held there by a gin pole arrangement. To push the mast up the rest of the way. I don't think so. Consequently, once the gin pole technique is started, you have to take it all the way.
  
  So the matter for me is, if the gin pole doesn't work, then I absolute need a helping hand to get it up.
  IF that is the case, where's the video showing 2 or 3 people getting this mast up. I have no clue how to instruct a helper. Where do they stand, what do they do. Where do I stand, what do I do. It's still impossible to pull wires through the crux IMHO. For instance, no two people could hold the mast at the crux by holding wires.... unless of course if the two people where 40 ft in the air on ladders above the mast. I'm not driving a fire truck to the water. So even needing help, I have to know how to direct someone to give the help I need... getting past the crux. Hell my neighbor could help, but I don't know how he could help, quite frankly. Where is he supposed to stand, and what should he do. When he's doing what he's suppose to do, what do I do. Perhaps he could jump up there and muscle it up through the crux. If so, my job would be to WATCH him, and tie it off and pin the forestay while he holds the mast. If these questions can't be answered, then, I'm back to the gin pole. I wouldn't ask my neighbor because he might hurt himself etc... not being an experienced Hobie 18 mast raiser. I'm all for asking for help, but other than, hey jump up there, and muscle up the mast for me, I don't have a clue in asking for help. For the cost of the hinge I could have hired the guys standing around the home depot looking for work. But again: other than, muscle it up for me, what should they be told.
  
  Glad to know breaking mast hinges is a common problem. Hence emphasis on keeping the mast straight as it is lifted by gin pole or brute strength.
  
  I do realize putting the boat on the ground would change handling the mast. I suspect the crux would be less, as you'd already be under the mast at the crux point.
  
  
  
  Edited by goodsailing on Mar 24, 2015 - 03:42 AM.
  
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• MN3
  
  

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  Posted: Mar 24, 2015 - 07:10 AM

  as i mentioned above:
  PS if you can get a helper.. i think the easiest is to have him/her get on the tramp with you (boat can be on ground or trailer) and both of you pick up the (pinned) mast and walk it forward
  when it is up, one of you go forward and pin (or secure) the forstay (the other stay and hold it upright)
  
  on our beach when we get a helper, we tie a bowline around the forestay and give them a long line to help PULL when we lift the mast out of the trailer craddle (sterns towards trunk on trailer)
  
  
  

  Quote

  o even needing help, I have to know how to direct someone to give the help I need... getting past the crux. Hell my neighbor could help, but I don't know how he could help, quite frankly. Where is he supposed to stand, and what should he do. When he's doing what he's suppose to do, what do I do. Perhaps he could jump up there and muscle it up through the crux.

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• Andinista
  
  

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  Posted: Mar 24, 2015 - 07:15 AM

  I usually do everything myself too, sometimes I get some help just to hold the mast up once raised, and eventually to get some initial angle at the beginning. The day when I really got away from the being in the edge of misery was when I got beachwheels. That's the single device that will help you the most. Sliding the boat out of the water, if at all possible, is a huge pain that you will avoid. Getting some independence from your trailer can be a major help too. It even enables you to get the boat off the trailer to the ground and back again, all by yourself. Not something you really need but in a few situations you might find yourself wanting to have the boat on the ground rather than on the trailer. For instance, you can use the trailer mast cradle instead of a ladder to get some initial angle. I often get the boat off the trailer to the ground instead of the water, just to avoid submerging the trailer lights. I'm probably a bit obsessed about that, don't take it as an advice.., just consider that it's not a crazy idea.
  In my experience (with a different boat by the way), raising the mast from the tramp is the simplest way once you get used to it. The critical part is getting the diamond wires out of the way and having the mast on your shoulders. From there, extending your hands is the next hard part but after that you are almost there, the weight comes down very fast as the mast approaches the vertical. If you watch a few videos you will notice that some people give the mast some speed in the first pull and use the momentum to save the intermediate position (mast on shoulders) and go quickly up. If you could get a lot of initial angle to save the first part it would really make things easier. With the boat on the ground you are in better shape, so it's probably a better option to get started. Maybe you can also figure out a raising system with your winch trailer but without a gin pole, which is actually useful only on the initial part with the low angles.
  
  On the last video, where the mast is secured up with a line that goes through the trailer winch, I have a couple comments, if you think of that option:
  - The guy leaves the line on the tramp and then gets it with one hand and with the other he holds the mast. That's a very dangerous position, you better avoid it, get the line closer to your hands, a quick knot on the diamond wires or duct tape it to the mast.
  - If you think of using the mainhseet or jib sheet to get some purchase on this line, or just to be able to lock it easily, be very careful that it can be uncleated, the angle to uncleat may be wrong and if you get stuck in the middle of the process (i.e. side stay caught on the transoms, very typical), you will be in deep sheets.. you can't raise nor lower the mast and cannot even get out of there...

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• Dogboy
  
  

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  Posted: Mar 24, 2015 - 09:19 AM

  goodsailing

  Helpers not available.
  Incline not available.
  Objective: raise mast by oneself, with common materials.

  
  
  Raising the mast solo is doable but difficult. Raising the mast solo without ever having raised the mast before successfully is nearly impossible as you are finding out. There are techniques that make raising the mast easier but these come with experience. You live near Baltimore, right? Why not just bring your boat to the Hobie regatta this May at Gunpowder Park? It should not to be too long of a trip for you and there will be people there who can not only help you raise your mast but also show you how to fully rig your boat properly. You will learn more about your boat in one or two days than you possibly can learn after weeks of posting on the forums.
  
  Just something to consider.
  
  sm

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• DamonLinkous
  
  

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  Posted: Mar 24, 2015 - 09:28 AM

  Dogboy

  You will learn more about your boat in one or two days than you possibly can learn after weeks of posting on the forums.

  
  
  And the choir said, AMEN!

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• goodsailing
  
  

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  Posted: Mar 24, 2015 - 01:55 PM

  Quote

  In my experience (with a different boat by the way), raising the mast from the tramp is the simplest way once you get used to it. The critical part is getting the diamond wires out of the way and having the mast on your shoulders.

  
  
  Dogboy: If your going to help me, where are you standing and what are you doing? And what would I be doing as you are doing your thing. Watching you?
  
  I expect to attend some sailing groups near me, but this problem shouldn't be too hard to figure out. The question is: should I continue with the gin pole idea or concentrate on lifting technique.
  
  Andinista identified the crux as I have. Dead lifting the mast up to where you can get underneath it to lift it. Think Olympic weight lifting. The problem is small platform where your stance is compromised, including having to change hands on the bar. You will note in the video the person actually lets go of the mast, holds the mast in one hand, to change hand positions around the wire. Its already been mentioned that momentum is used just as in weight lifting to get the weight up to the point where you can change positions. This is a matter of technique. Where you put your feet, hands, and what body movements are needed to get the mast on your shoulder. I've mentioned too, because I've been up there, as the mast is raised it become more difficult off the deck a ft and becomes harder, due to the fulcrum how the mast is attached adding to the problem of shifting hands, feet, body etc. The center of gravity shifts as you lift.
  
  Now if this is the ONLY way you guys raise masts, then it's pretty simply. Jerk the mast up with both hands, at apex, let go with one hand, get it around the wire, stoop, get under, get hand back on mast and it's on your shoulder.
  
  1. If I can't muscle it up, then
  2. Gin pole
  3. If not gin pole
  4. then someone else must stand up there.
  
  What technique is used lowering the mast. I can just see myself after a rough day of sailing holding a lowering mast with one hand, trying to get my other hand around the wire and off my shoulder.
  
  I ordered the hinge. Nothing much more to talk about until the hinge gets here.
  
  
  
  Edited by goodsailing on Mar 24, 2015 - 01:58 PM.
  
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• Andinista
  
  

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  Posted: Mar 24, 2015 - 07:30 PM

  Never tried it, just thinking out loud:
  Have your boat on the ground instead of trailer. If yor cooler is strong enough, put it behind the rear beam and use it as a step. Start lifting the mast from the ground to avoid changing position

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• Andinista
  
  

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  Posted: Mar 24, 2015 - 07:36 PM

  One stupid question, just in case. When you were trying with the ginpole, the trap wires wiere attached to the front beam and no further aft, right? I remember trying this long ago without the swinging you describe. I didnt use a pole, just the trailer winch, but started from an angle, i don't remember sll the details but i do remember using the trap wires without any issues.

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• Dogboy
  
  

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  Posted: Mar 24, 2015 - 11:39 PM

  goodsailing

  
  
  Dogboy: If your going to help me, where are you standing and what are you doing? And what would I be doing as you are doing your thing. Watching you?
  

  
  
  Any of the above. There will be people there setting up their boats. You can watch how they raise their masts and observe the process. If you want assistance getting your mast up there will be people around to help. Often when there is a group of hobie sailors rigging their boats and one person is ready to hoist their mast, all they have to do is ask one person for help and three people will come over. One person grabs the back of the mast, one person raises the mast, one person pins the forestay, and others are around to clear fouled wires, help lift, or do whatever is needed. It just makes the operation run very smoothly. There are more than a few experienced "old guys" in the group that have done this for a lot of years.
  
  sm

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• Shawn

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