Yes, trap wires were attached at the same point where the guidelines to the pole where attached at the eye on the hull where the bungie is. But now, the trailer was slightly bow down hill , as people said, point bow down hill, my drive is lightly down hill, meaning as mast was lifted the end of the mast shifted DOWNHILL. Bow up hill might have helped. But trap lines never helped to keep it from shifting. Lines need to be nearly perpendicular at top of mast to keep top of mast from moving laterally.
So what does that one person do should two others not come over? Hold the the mast up so that mast lifter person can get under it? We're getting there Dogboy....
If mast lifter ties off the forestay with a line that runs through the hand crank back to the mast there is no need for one to pin forestay. Mast lifter simply jumps down and does that job himself. If you are getting help, the most critical person helping, aside from a Bulgarian Weighlifter as mast lifter, is the person who stands back there and lifts the mast so that mast lifter can get under the mast, thereby avoiding jerking the mast up to get under it. Now all this considering: boat is on trailer. I tried putting a step ladder under there, that would serve as a human helper in that capacity, but, low and behold, and as previously described: mast was even harder to lift up at an angle than it was laying flat on the cooler!
Now if the boat was off the trailer, perhaps, person holding mast up would be more effective as they'd gain more feet in mast raising ability. But I'm trying to do this with the boat on the trailer. Why? Because after getting the boat on the trailer I'm going to back it down a ramp and go sailing. Yes, i'm considering, taking the boat off the trailer onto beech wheels, put the mast up, put the boat in the water, when returning, take the boat out of the water with THE TRAILER, not the beech wheels, and then I'm faced with taking down the mast with the boat on the trailer.
If I can put up, and take down the mast on the trailer, I'll perhaps eliminate, taking the boat off the trailer to get it in the water. Since there is a ramp, there may not be a way to pull the boat out on beech wheels so I'd be faced with removing the boat from the water on the trailer, with the mast up, take the boat off the trailer to take the mast down, then put the boat back on the trailer. Plus handling the mast.... the reason, the OBJECTIVE IS: putting up the mast and taking the mast down on the trailer.
I take my laser off the trailer, put the mast on it, hand wheel it down to the water on a dolly, go sail, come back, get the dolly, pull the boat up the ramp by hand, because IT IS A LIGHT BOAT, take the mast off, then put the boat back on the road trailer. Sometimes I just leave it on the trailer, but this boat too is easier to mast with it lower. I'm not going to be able to do this with a Hobie Cat as the boat is too heavy to deal with guiding it down the ramp, it will get away from me due to its weight and I risk crashing rudder into pier, and pulling it back up the ramp on beech wheels. Perhaps this boat is simply too big. I don't know. I've not been to the boat ramp yet. But if I can't get the mast up at the house, then I'm certainly not going to get it up at the water, when there are no other cat sailors around. The reason the objective is: get the mast up and down, on the trailer, in my driveway. This way, when I get to the water, it will be no problem. So so long winded, morning coffee and I've not yet had any breakfast.
-- Goodsailing
Laser-Standard Rig (Sold 6/15)
H18 (Sold 7/15)
Building 19' Tacking Outrigger
Balt-Wash Area --
in this video the guy uses his trailer winch (with an additional pole)
the reason i am posting this is so you can watch him adjust this straps that utilize the trap cables to stableize the mast from side to side sway https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ytp8Tbq5yP0
Further thoughts that if you don't have a human mast raiser standing up there you need mechanical help.
Notice around 3:40 as the mast lifts off his scissor stand it cants to the left, due to wind. It's caught by the guide wires. Any further than it did go, and his hinge would have broke. I think proper placement of the trap wires and a way to tension those wires for mast raising and lower is key there. Which is why my hinge broke. I've seen Y extenders for the mast crutch on other boats used for this purpose. No pole needed just the extension with the Y at the top. Key here is the crutch base must be secure; I've seen the crutch break away from trailer. That needed welded plate on base there for reinforcement. His pole is helping to provide support though. He needs strap from boat to trailer to keep boat from moving on trailer as he cranks. Notice how he takes up slack periodically as needed as there's not a full take up or let out tensioning system. Which is what is really needed, guided from where you are cranking if you could configure a system. This way no stopping and walking around to attach point. (Some boats have this system already installed. I think the video of the 21 up there has this as a feature)
I'm going to rethink using boom as pole and my little gooseneck and go to something on the trailer... a pole like this one or weld tubing to form V frame that's hinged bolted to trailer that can simply be raised and lowered. It would lay flat on trailer nearly the same shape of the Y of the trailer. You simply stand it up and tie your lines to mast. No need for side wires or line as ^ is steel.
Thanks for posting.
Also, I did research prior to buying this boat. The 2 part video how to rig an 18 led me believe that I could lift the mast up there myself, the reason I bought the boat. After trying it, and it not working out so good, I have to find another way.
I appreciate all your help... we'll get there. While I wait for the hinge, perhaps I'll weld the V boom! HA The mast crutch base is shakey and bolts are rusty and I don't trust that for a raising boom... No way..
-- Goodsailing
Laser-Standard Rig (Sold 6/15)
H18 (Sold 7/15)
Building 19' Tacking Outrigger
Balt-Wash Area --
looks to me it's not the wind but the mast coming of it's cradle (or whatever he was using to hold it)
doesn't matter wind wont mess you up once the gin pole guide lines are set correctly
he had an issue of his gin pole guide lines slipping on his h16 beams
this was not an issue for me with my h18 and ez-step system.. they were fixed around the bows and didn't slip
Goodsailing, you are underestimating beachwheels. Te boat becomes a light one with them, if it's on your wishlist, you won't regret anticipating the purchase.
The reason why you need adjustment is because the attachment points of the side wires are not in line with the axis of rotation. Not just horizontal but also vertical alignment. If you could engineer that instead of the the remote adjustment system you would be fine I think. The challenge seems simpler to me, it's about finding the right spot and adding something (removable?) to compensate the measures, right? Playing at the same time with the lifting line and the two side lines seems dangerous, at some point of the above video the guy actually went a bit further than expected when releasing tension, didn't he?
See that flag waving in the wind... yet you are right it might not be the wind...
Tractor Supply has 2 20 x 10 x 8 tires that are 1,000lbs rated. I can get a 4 x4 hub with 1" bore bearing and then, 1" steel tube for axle long enough to support hulls. Cotter pins and washers. But no sense getting wheels if I can't get the mast up.
You are right, the lines need adjusting as the mast is raised. But not necessarily dangerous. Look how this accomplishes what we're talking about. Start in at 8 min.
I'll have to look at it again.. but of course hulling, and adjusting from two different locations is problematic. That's why this guy got that part figured out. The hauling line reels in the side tensioners.
-- Goodsailing
Laser-Standard Rig (Sold 6/15)
H18 (Sold 7/15)
Building 19' Tacking Outrigger
Balt-Wash Area --
Here's the v system I'm thinking of. Notice the model he built first. He's up there to keep mast from swinging. Not a good idea in my opinion. I'd plan on putting the v frame on the trailer, not the boat, and stand at the bow between the hulls for heaving. Notice how he's not secured the v that well to the hull. A shackle holding the plate. I'd do bolted steel stand/ hinge on the steel frame trailer. Perhaps even a line tied to the main halyard running under the middle of the tramp with a block to the front would keep the top of the mast from swinging. I could handle that line with one hand while cranking the haul line, all from the front.
After reading about your struggle -- what you need is getting a smaller boat! I mean, way smaller. Perhaps Hobie Wave or H14. If this is keeping you out of water, it would be a smart move. I know this is not what you want to here, but seriously... let someone else have fun with your H18.
This will give you a much easier and safer way to learn mast stepping technique, rigging, lunching, handling, etc.
Looking at what you'd pay for the tires to construct your own beach wheels, you need to look at first things first - getting your mast up. For the price of the tires at Tractor Supply, you can buy a 12 volt electric winch from Harbor Freight that comes with a remote. Bolt the winch to the front of your trailer, run a line up through a block on your mast support on the trailer, and out to your forestay. Tie a trap line to each front corner of the tramp frame to stabilize the mast, and then hoist away. This has been done by numerous people, and it works. It'll be the best $100 you'll spend at this point.
The lines need adjustment only because your boom is curved and therefore you are attaching the tramp wires to a lower point than the mast base.
The guy on that video doesn't adjust the stabilizing lines because he solved that problem with a short line to raise the attachment point on each side. Both attachment points and the mast base (or more exactly the hinge axis) are all three ON the axis of rotation of the mast when it's raised. Therefore the needed length of the stabilizing lines is constant, no need to adjust anything.
I have a laser which is a smaller boat. The 18 mast will rise. I'll enjoy the boat for sure. I'm not ready to go sailing for another 3 weeks so there's plenty of time to build a mechanical solution which is not too difficult. Once built, no reason to hire the Olympic weight lifter, or risk getting hurt trying to lift an awkward piece of metal.
I'm going to need the beech wheels for another part of the park that has a beach launch, that is, if the boat ramp doesn't work. The crank, or mechanical advantage of blocks, which I currently own will suffice over buying electric winch at the moment.
I'm not understanding that the boom or gin pole is curved.
Mast crutch base is not substantial enough that base needs welded plate, if I were to use the mast crutch as gin pole.
I've decided to buy the two sections of steel square tubing 7" long and a small steel plate to weld to the top of the ^ frame (gin pole) Once welded I'll bolt the bottoms to angle brackets to the front cross beam holding the hulls, just inside the hulls. That should give me a 5" rise to the top of the teepee. I'll drill a couple of holes in the plate to attach eyebolts for line attachments. This way the ^ will lay flat on the trailer. You simply raise it up verticle and attach your lines. This will eliminate dealing with a wobbley gin pole, boom, and loose lines and dealing with keeping tension. In addition, no fittings on the hulls etc. The steel frame will eliminate wobbliness. Yep, making the wooden scissor to hold mast up a few feet is also scheduled for production. As I await the delivery of the mast hinge.
It probably seems like this is more work, than it really is. Fact of the matter is, If I didn't type fast, typing would take longer than completing this project of raising the mast. I'll have less than an hr buying metal and welding the frame, gin pole.
Edited by goodsailing on Mar 26, 2015 - 09:39 AM.
-- Goodsailing
Laser-Standard Rig (Sold 6/15)
H18 (Sold 7/15)
Building 19' Tacking Outrigger
Balt-Wash Area --
Yes. One person (the "primary" lifter) stands on the tramp. The second person stands at the back and picks up the mast so that it is easier for the primary lifter to hold. If the primary lifter is strong enough, he can pick the mast up the rest of the way until it's stepped. Then the second person walks over to the front of the boat and pins the forestay wires. If the primary lifter is not strong enough to do the entire lift himself, then the second person can either start cranking on a winch line connected to the trap lines to pull the mast up without a gin pole. Or the second person can just jump up onto the tramp and the two people raise the mast together like in the picture of the flag raising on Iwo Jima. We've raised the mast like this countless times. The diamond wires on the 18 mast make things tricky. As I said, there is technique to the whole process. Find someone that has done it before to help you, don't reinvent the wheel.
I am not a fan of mechanical/gin pole systems. They may be OK once they are dialed in, but IMO there is too much that can go wrong and too much potential for equipment breakage or injury. If the mast starts to swing out to the side, the hinge will break and the whole mess will come crashing down. Very dangerous. I think having two people there to stabilize the mast and lift it manually is the best way.
I've said this before, but will say it again, if you're not large enough/strong enough to lift the mast yourself, then you are probably going to have a very hard time righting the boat solo.
Yes. One person (the "primary" lifter) stands on the tramp. The second person stands at the back and picks up the mast so that it is easier for the primary lifter to hold. If the primary lifter is strong enough, he can pick the mast up the rest of the way until it's stepped. Then the second person walks over to the front of the boat and pins the forestay wires. If the primary lifter is not strong enough to do the entire lift himself, then the second person can either start cranking on a winch line connected to the trap lines to pull the mast up without a gin pole. Or the second person can just jump up onto the tramp and the two people raise the mast together like in the picture of the flag raising on Iwo Jima. We've raised the mast like this countless times. The diamond wires on the 18 mast make things tricky. As I said, there is technique to the whole process. Find someone that has done it before to help you, don't reinvent the wheel.
I am not a fan of mechanical/gin pole systems. They may be OK once they are dialed in, but IMO there is too much that can go wrong and too much potential for equipment breakage or injury. If the mast starts to swing out to the side, the hinge will break and the whole mess will come crashing down. Very dangerous. I think having two people there to stabilize the mast and lift it manually is the best way.
I've said this before, but will say it again, if you're not large enough/strong enough to lift the mast yourself, then you are probably going to have a very hard time righting the boat solo.
sm
Thanks for describing what the secondary helper does. Of course if there happens to be 2 primary lifters, one on each side of the mast, (will all that weight at the back of the boat make the bow tip up?) there would be no need to move any hand positions, hence no awkward movements and 1, 2, 3, up we go............OF COURSE. Two people can do it.
Now with the added claim that if you can't raise the mast solo, by brute force, then it would be a hard time righting the boat solo....
So basically what you are saying is: To deal with a Hobie 18 on the ground, and in the water, you need 2 people. Otherwise get a boat that one person can handle? Is this what you are saying?
I think brute force raising the mast, and righting the boat in the water are 2 separate things. It takes no brute force to right the boat, only weight on a line, or weight on a righting pole to lift the mast up. Yes holding a bag of water on your shoulder, if that is needed is brute force but climb far out on a pole and, whoosh, the mast come up while you're drinking beer.
There are plenty of examples of people safely raising masts on boats using gin poles including Hobie 18's. Which is the objective is here, because the secondary lifter is no where to be around. And where the primary lifter finds it too awkward and dangerous to injury, whereas gin pole lifting might be dangerous too. I'd rather have a broken hinge, mast, hull, instead of a broken back lifting a pole, and broken parts at the same time etc.
So that leads us to the best approach to gin pole. So the question is: at what angle should the base steel be cut and a plate welded in order for the frame base to rotate 90 degree's from a horizontal position to a vertical position at the frame hinge on the trailer. And then where and how to anchor tensioning lines to keep the mast from swinging once the STURDY Steel frame lifts the mast. (I know I can get the mast up, I've already done that with the boom (gin pole). etc.
I'm not giving up on getting the mast up by myself. I'll deal with righting the boat with a secondary boat righter, to learn if that can be done solo, first. I try to right the boat myself, they watch. If I can raise the mast, and right the boat solo, then I'm home free. Home free is the objective. Not sure I'll get there, but its worth a try. Wouldn't you like to own a Hobie 18 and go sailing all by yourself if you wanted. If so, follow along...
-- Goodsailing
Laser-Standard Rig (Sold 6/15)
H18 (Sold 7/15)
Building 19' Tacking Outrigger
Balt-Wash Area --
Goodsailing, you are over thinking it....build it just like shown in the attachment....I bought this one 25 years ago when I was sailing with my 4 year old son and it worked as advertised. Been sittiing unused ever since I taught him how to pin the forestay a couple years later. I find it easier and quicker just to muscle it up. http://static.hobiecat.co…_attachments/3151z52.pdf
I've seen this and modeled using wood as pole but then switched to using the boom. "if trailer/boat is not on level ground, point bow uphill" was my failing. I had it pointed down hill thinking that was better, reading posts here, put bow down etc, yet failed to account that mast would swing once airborne if bow was downhill. My pole straps were wrong. You're right, I'll just keep on track with this method. I know muscling it up is easier and quicker once you have the technique down. And you can only get that technique down by being up there heaving away. Yes, if your second party is a child or pretty young thing in a bikini (not my case HA) then there goes your secondary helper.. etc
Thanks for everyone's help..
Edited by goodsailing on Mar 26, 2015 - 01:04 PM.
-- Goodsailing
Laser-Standard Rig (Sold 6/15)
H18 (Sold 7/15)
Building 19' Tacking Outrigger
Balt-Wash Area --
Goodsailing, you are over thinking it....build it just like shown in the attachment....I bought this one 25 years ago when I was sailing with my 4 year old son and it worked as advertised. Been sittiing unused ever since I taught him how to pin the forestay a couple years later. I find it easier and quicker just to muscle it up. http://static.hobiecat.co…_attachments/3151z52.pdf
I agree the ez-step design is a good one, and works -
So basically what you are saying is: To deal with a Hobie 18 on the ground, and in the water, you need 2 people. Otherwise get a boat that one person can handle? Is this what you are saying?
It is a 2 person boat, and is 70% easier to manage with 2 people
that being said, i own 3 "2 person" boats and solo all of them (but will take help every time raising or lowering my mast)
I'd rather have a broken hinge, mast, hull, instead of a broken back lifting a pole, and broken parts at the same time etc.
You might rather have a broken head of somebody walking around (the one that could have helped you)
You won't be able to right the boat solo without a righting pole. Maybe with a righting bag but it's definitely harder to master the technique than raising mastsolo
Regarding the A frame, it doesn't look that it will avoid lateral movement of the mast, you are still considering stabilizing with the trap wires, right?
After all the discussion, I'm seriously considering the electric winch with remote control, I didn't have that option in mind. Very elegant!
After you succeed, which you will certainly do, the next problem is to pin the forestay. You need to tension the rig at that point, not in excess but you don't want it loose. It's easier to adjust a side stay for that purpose, because you don't have to deal with the bridle wires. So on one side pin the sidestay one or two holes higher.
you are still considering stabilizing with the trap wires, right?
Yes
electric winch
Rating, placement, wiring? & cost of winch
After you succeed, which you will certainly do, the next problem is to pin the forestay. You need to tension the rig at that point, not in excess but you don't want it loose. It's easier to adjust a side stay for that purpose, because you don't have to deal with the bridle wires. So on one side pin the sidestay one or two holes higher.
The line holding the forestay will be attached at above the chainplate allowing as much tension needed for attachment.
You won't be able to right the boat solo without a righting pole.
Look way back.. talking about that... righting pole, and also same pole as sculling oar. If you do this right you could possible have one pole for 1. gin pole, sculling oar, and righting pole. Once the mast is up with the pole, you scull it to sailing area, sail, topple the boat and use the same pole to right the boat etc... 1 pole=3 uses, not excluding 4. using pole to push off from pier or swatting other boaters trying to take your beer. How's that for over thinking!
-- Goodsailing
Laser-Standard Rig (Sold 6/15)
H18 (Sold 7/15)
Building 19' Tacking Outrigger
Balt-Wash Area --