Nacra 5.0 Rudders Pivmatic And Separation :: Catamaran Sailboats at TheBeachcats.com

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Nacra 5.0 Rudders Pivmatic And Separation

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leeboweffect

Rank: Mate

Registered: Apr 22, 2015

Last visit: May 21, 2023

Posts: 484
Posted: May 04, 2015 - 09:41 AM

New to the Nacra way of life, I have learned that the "standard" rudder setup on my '83 5.0 did not incorporate a kick-up feature. Further that this feature was optional and/or can be added if you so choose being called a "Pivmatic." Here is what my boat came with. Is it the "standard" or the Pivmatic?

Discovered over the weekend that one of my rudders is separating at the trailing edge parting line.

Is this worth repairing or should I replace it? Googling I find that there are quite a few used rudders available for the 5.2 and up, but none designated for the 5.0. Is the 5.0 rudder unique and not interchangeable with the other models?

Thanks in advance.

Edited by leeboweffect on May 04, 2015 - 10:43 AM.

--
Hobie 16 (3 formerly)
MacGregor 25 (formerly)
Chrysler Dagger 14 (formerly)
NACRA 5.0 (currently)
High Point, NC
--
nacra55

Rank: Mate

Registered: Nov 02, 2004

Last visit: Aug 07, 2023

Posts: 626
Posted: May 04, 2015 - 11:03 AM

leeboweffectNew to the Nacra way of life, I have learned that the "standard" rudder setup on my '83 5.0 did not incorporate a kick-up feature. Further that this feature was optional and/or can be added if you so choose being called a "Pivmatic." Here is what my boat came with. Is it the "standard" or the Pivmatic?

Thanks in advance.Edited by leeboweffect on May 04, 2015 - 10:43 AM.

You have the plastic clam cleat version of the pivmatic. There is a metal version that is more expensive but I believe grips the line much better. The pivmatic tend to break were the pin goes thru. It looks like you have 1/4 inch line. I prefer 3/16. Make sure you use a good no stretch line that has a knobby cover. You will see some people rig the line with 2:1 purchase but that just increases the forces needed to kick up the rudder and it also tends to re cleat when your not wanting it to. Don't add the purchase.

--
Ron
Nacra F18
Reservoir Sailing Assn.
Brandon, Mississippi
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leeboweffect

Rank: Mate

Registered: Apr 22, 2015

Last visit: May 21, 2023

Posts: 484
Posted: May 04, 2015 - 11:33 AM

Thanks Ron.

--
Hobie 16 (3 formerly)
MacGregor 25 (formerly)
Chrysler Dagger 14 (formerly)
NACRA 5.0 (currently)
High Point, NC
--
Edchris177

Rank: Chief

Registered: Nov 26, 2009

Last visit: Aug 10, 2024

Posts: 2531
Posted: May 04, 2015 - 12:40 PM

As Ron said, 1/4" is to thick, it works with new pivmatics, but as the plastic "teeth" wear, you need a line that will slide deeper into the groove. No stretch/very low stretch is good, otherwise at speed your rudders tend to pull back, & change the helm forces. If you hit something, the line pulls the 1/2 round base off the tiller tube. As it pivots upwards, the line then pulls out of the cleat, leaving the rudder blade free to move. You simply snap the base back onto the tube and pull the blade down with line & re-cleat. They work quite well.
Now the bad news...It is difficult to find new pivmatics, I bought some of th e last ones Murrays had, they were around $35 for the aluminum ones. However, you can rebuild them, Clamcleat makes the cleat portion, (either plastic-dirt cheap, or aluminum, still pretty cheap), IIRC it's the MIDI sized one-you need the holes in the cleat to match those on the rounded base, then pop rivet together. You also need to re-use the "U" shaped keeper.
I think Murrays is now selling an alternate part, that works basically the same way. I use mine until the little ears the pin goes through break off.
Re: rudders-the skeg hull boats,(5.0, 5.7) use a different blade, Look at your hull, see how the end 3' slants upwards? The blade has to be longer to account for this rise. Fix the one you have, it takes an hour.
The biggest job is to fully dry the old one out. Pry the edges slightly apart, then leave it sit in front of the air conditioner duct, or in a warm sunny location for a few days. Let your inner dentist loose & dremel into the foam.
Tape the gelcote, use some microfibres to slightly thicken a bit of epoxy,(leave it slack enough to run fully into the void) & squirt it in with a veterinary syringe. With rudder on edge, gently pry/probe so it runs fully in. Clamp sides of rudder using a piece of styrofoam SM on each side.
If the foam is broken up quite a bit on the inside, after removing it, you can make a biscuit out of cloth layers, & insert one against each side of the blade. I think Andrew (MN3) did just that a month or so ago. I have fixed several blades this way, including one that the holes for the pull up line was torn out.
When cured trim/sand & it's good as new.

Edited by Edchris177 on May 04, 2015 - 01:01 PM.

--
Hobie 18 Magnum
Dart 15
Mystere 6.0XL Sold Was a handful solo
Nacra 5.7
Nacra 5.0
Bombardier Invitation (Now officially DEAD)
Various other Dock cluttering WaterCrap
--
Edchris177

Rank: Chief

Registered: Nov 26, 2009

Last visit: Aug 10, 2024

Posts: 2531
Posted: May 04, 2015 - 01:23 PM

http://www.thebeachcats.c…opic/topic/13088/start/0
http://www.thebeachcats.c…nc=viewtopic&topic=15476
http://www.thebeachcats.c…nc=viewtopic&topic=12764

--
Hobie 18 Magnum
Dart 15
Mystere 6.0XL Sold Was a handful solo
Nacra 5.7
Nacra 5.0
Bombardier Invitation (Now officially DEAD)
Various other Dock cluttering WaterCrap
--
leeboweffect

Rank: Mate

Registered: Apr 22, 2015

Last visit: May 21, 2023

Posts: 484
Posted: May 04, 2015 - 01:35 PM

Thanks Ed, great info.. Again, all this NACRA stuff is new to me. Not being critical of the design, but the Pivmatic (who thought that name up and how much did they have to drink!!!) seems very cumbersome for what it does. I used to swear A LOT about the black plastic cams on the H16 rudder kick up now I'm not so sure that it isn't a better idea. I'm familiar with the aluminum Clamcleat as I used to have that for my H16 outhaul. Just like in this application, the supplied black plastic version was good for 2-3 seasons then !@#$!@#$!@#$

On the line, I usually think Spectra when someone says no stretch?

I have repaired Hobie rudders using a similar technique to what you suggest above. Oh well, just more time, more epoxy. Heaven forbid I ever break one beyond repair. I tried quite a bit to find a replacement to no avail.

--
Hobie 16 (3 formerly)
MacGregor 25 (formerly)
Chrysler Dagger 14 (formerly)
NACRA 5.0 (currently)
High Point, NC
--
MN3

Rank: Master Chief

Registered: Jun 20, 2006

Last visit: May 22, 2024

Posts: 7089
Posted: May 04, 2015 - 02:03 PM

QuoteIf the foam is broken up quite a bit on the inside, after removing it, you can make a biscuit out of cloth layers, & insert one against each side of the blade. I think Andrew (MN3) did just that a month or so ago. I have fixed several blades this way, including one that the holes for the pull up line was torn out.
When cured trim/sand & it's good as new.

http://www.thebeachcats.c…nc=viewtopic&topic=15479
leeboweffect

Rank: Mate

Registered: Apr 22, 2015

Last visit: May 21, 2023

Posts: 484
Posted: May 04, 2015 - 03:33 PM

Thanks folks, good infomation all.

--
Hobie 16 (3 formerly)
MacGregor 25 (formerly)
Chrysler Dagger 14 (formerly)
NACRA 5.0 (currently)
High Point, NC
--
nacra55

Rank: Mate

Registered: Nov 02, 2004

Last visit: Aug 07, 2023

Posts: 626
Posted: May 04, 2015 - 04:58 PM

leeboweffect

Thanks in advance.Edited by leeboweffect on May 04, 2015 - 10:43 AM.

Noticed in your pic that the hole in the tiller arm is horizontal. You probably have the old style connector for the crossbar to tiller connection. Basically a U with a bolt going thru the tiller arm. The weld on the bolt brakes, once it brakes on both sides, the crossbar will rotate. There is a position where the rudders will lock in place and you have no steering, you have to rotate the crossbar out of that position to get steering back. A wild ride when it does this for the first time during a start when it's blowing 20mph with 60 boats on the line. Check out http://www.murrays.com/56-5516.html for a fix.

--
Ron
Nacra F18
Reservoir Sailing Assn.
Brandon, Mississippi
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MN3

Rank: Master Chief

Registered: Jun 20, 2006

Last visit: May 22, 2024

Posts: 7089
Posted: May 04, 2015 - 05:20 PM

QuoteI used to swear A LOT about the black plastic cams on the H16 rudder kick up now I'm not so sure that it isn't a better idea.

rudders and their kick up system is the achilles heel of almost every beach cat

i think the prindle / nacra 2 line system is probably the best but i'm not ready to retro fit my cats yet (but i did buy all the spares i could find)
leeboweffect

Rank: Mate

Registered: Apr 22, 2015

Last visit: May 21, 2023

Posts: 484
Posted: May 04, 2015 - 11:29 PM

Nacra55 thanks for the heads up on the old connectors. You are very observant!!! I see exactly what you mean about the old style I have. I will definitely take your advice and upgrade. MY GOD MURRAYS IS PROUD OF THOSE = $ 57.00 proud %$^&*#$%^&%$#@$#%$%^&*&%$#@###$$%%^^&*

--
Hobie 16 (3 formerly)
MacGregor 25 (formerly)
Chrysler Dagger 14 (formerly)
NACRA 5.0 (currently)
High Point, NC
--
rattlenhum

Rank: Mate

Registered: Aug 01, 2002

Last visit: Sep 14, 2024

Posts: 425
Posted: May 05, 2015 - 02:43 PM

leeboweffect MY GOD MURRAYS IS PROUD OF THOSE = $ 57.00 proud %$^&*#$%^&%$#@$#%$%^&*&%$#@###$$%%^^&*

C'mon. man.....that's not even a whole boat buck!!

--
Jerome Vaughan
Hobie 16
Clinton, Mississippi
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Edchris177

Rank: Chief

Registered: Nov 26, 2009

Last visit: Aug 10, 2024

Posts: 2531
Posted: May 05, 2015 - 05:42 PM

I have not sprung for them. The 50 cent fix is to use a length of SS lockwire. Wrap a few turns from the bottom of the"U" around the tiller bar, twist to take up the slack, then tuck the ends or lie them flat on the tiller & tape so you don't have meat hooks.
My original pieces were missing, so I bent some SS flatbar, drilled & wired them. They have not turned in 4 years.

--
Hobie 18 Magnum
Dart 15
Mystere 6.0XL Sold Was a handful solo
Nacra 5.7
Nacra 5.0
Bombardier Invitation (Now officially DEAD)
Various other Dock cluttering WaterCrap
--
nacra55

Rank: Mate

Registered: Nov 02, 2004

Last visit: Aug 07, 2023

Posts: 626
Posted: May 05, 2015 - 10:20 PM

Yep there are several ways to "Canadian Rig It", wire, zip ties, duct tape, even rubber bands or bungee. You can even re-weld it, if you have a welder.

--
Ron
Nacra F18
Reservoir Sailing Assn.
Brandon, Mississippi
--
leeboweffect

Rank: Mate

Registered: Apr 22, 2015

Last visit: May 21, 2023

Posts: 484
Posted: May 05, 2015 - 10:24 PM

OK rattlenhum, I'll bite, what is a boat buck?

Ed, at $57 I may have to cook up a farm boy solution myself.

--
Hobie 16 (3 formerly)
MacGregor 25 (formerly)
Chrysler Dagger 14 (formerly)
NACRA 5.0 (currently)
High Point, NC
--
Edchris177

Rank: Chief

Registered: Nov 26, 2009

Last visit: Aug 10, 2024

Posts: 2531
Posted: May 06, 2015 - 09:19 AM

QuoteYep there are several ways to "Canadian Rig It"

I cannot claim to be the author of that solution. Several Good ol' American Boys posted it here, I just borrowed it.
I actually intended the exact fix you posted, (I think Pete Begle had some used ones a couple years ago, but he was down in Cabo & didn't answer the email), & I have a spool of aviation lockwire, so I used it. The temporary fix sort of morphed into 4 years.

--
Hobie 18 Magnum
Dart 15
Mystere 6.0XL Sold Was a handful solo
Nacra 5.7
Nacra 5.0
Bombardier Invitation (Now officially DEAD)
Various other Dock cluttering WaterCrap
--
mhirte

Rank: Lubber

Registered: Sep 09, 2013

Last visit: Jun 01, 2022

Posts: 26
Posted: May 06, 2015 - 02:03 PM

The Murray parts that fix the problem worked great for me. Being unable to steer is a bad thing. The system now works smoothly and decreases my paranoia.

--
Mark Hirte
Nacra 5.0 1983 - (1st cat)
Deerfield, Il
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Wolfman

Rank: Chief

Registered: Jun 24, 2009

Last visit: Jun 15, 2023

Posts: 1555
Posted: May 07, 2015 - 12:32 AM

Haha the Canadians have provided quite a few 'alternative' rigging options. :) In any case I'm using the term Canadian Rigging from now on. Chris, I scooped those from Pete so fast the internet was on fire. Missed on the the Nacra wings though.

I've locked up my rudders more than once with the old system. Lockwire does work though and that is how my 5.2 is currently rigged. The overpriced Murray's parts do make the steering a little smoother. You should have some lockwire in your toolbox anyway for those 'special' occasions.

--
Dave Bonin
1981 Nacra 5.2 "Lucile"
1986 Nacra 5.7 "Belle"
Winnipeg, Manitoba, Canada
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leeboweffect

Rank: Mate

Registered: Apr 22, 2015

Last visit: May 21, 2023

Posts: 484
Posted: May 07, 2015 - 09:40 AM

QuoteHaha the Canadians have provided quite a few 'alternative' rigging options. :)

Cool, let's get on the 401 and catch the Leafs, pound a few Molsons and get back in time for the midnight moose pie tossing contest. Sh'yeah!. Back to you Garth !@#$%^!@#$%!@#$%^!@#$%^&

Edited by leeboweffect on May 08, 2015 - 08:51 AM.

--
Hobie 16 (3 formerly)
MacGregor 25 (formerly)
Chrysler Dagger 14 (formerly)
NACRA 5.0 (currently)
High Point, NC
--
rattlenhum

Rank: Mate

Registered: Aug 01, 2002

Last visit: Sep 14, 2024

Posts: 425
Posted: May 07, 2015 - 03:11 PM

leeboweffectOK rattlenhum, I'll bite, what is a boat buck?

$100

It doesn't go very far on boat parts....especially those that have the Flying H on 'em!

--
Jerome Vaughan
Hobie 16
Clinton, Mississippi
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