• icon149
  
  

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  Posted: Jul 10, 2015 - 03:01 PM

  Obviously super noob question, but seriously i can't wrap my head around how to use the "catamaran writing systems" for sale on Murrays. (and therefore which one would be right for me).
  
  My old Isotope had a writing bar which worked well for me to write it single handed. I get the righting bar, when i sailed the isotope all the other cats had the same righting bar so I've never seen anything else in action.
  
  but the rope or shock cord righting systems (and the pictures along with) seem to have ropes under the tramp etc, but i don't understand how that helps.
  
  I can see how having a rope around the base of the mast that you can sling over the hull and then lean back would work, but how does a rope under the tramp help you right the boat?
  
  I'd like to be able to right my boat by myself and so righting aids are of interest as i don't think i'm heavy enough to do it without some help. I just want to know which one would be the best and most economical solution.
  
  i'm athletic 180#'s, and when i capsized it (first day out sailing ) i just slung the jib sheet over the hull and stood on the dagger board, nearly got it up (needed some waves and a gust) ended up getting a mast lift from a passing boater, once they pulled the mast a few feet out of the water i was able to hoist it up the rest of the way. i felt good that with crew we could have easily popped it up and out without assistance, and i figure with a righting bag i may be able to do it myself...
  
  so what good are the fancy "systems"?
  
  Thanks,
  Conrad
  
  --
  1987 Nacra 5.8
  1978 Isotope (sold)
  --

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• pbegle
  
  

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  Posted: Jul 10, 2015 - 03:38 PM

  Create a W under the boat. Requires 4 single blocks, 5 eyestraps (10 3/8 alum rivets), 10' of 7/16 shock cord, 20' of 7/16 line. Rivet 4 eyestraps to each corner of beams, 5th one to center of rear beam. Hang a block on each side of front beam and another on middle rear beam. Dead end rope on one rear corner, then up to front block (same side), then thru your 4th block (lying loose), then thru other front block & tie off on last rear eyestrap. Tie shock cord off on dolphin striker, run back thru block on middle rear beam, then tie off on that 4th floating block. When boat is over on it's side, plenty of room for one or two people to pull on main arms of W you've formed. This system is essential for quick righting. Pete
  
  
  
  Edited by pbegle on Jul 10, 2015 - 03:40 PM.

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• icon149
  
  

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  Posted: Jul 10, 2015 - 05:49 PM

  So if i understand, that means that the line does not go over the hull right? i guess it seems like you lose some potential mechanical advantage by having the lines anchored to the inside of the hull/tramp and not a line over the hull/outside of the hull. that additional lever arm makes a big difference when righting a large boat doesn't it? Did i miss something there?
  
  I can see how that would be a huge help with a crew to quickly get in position and keep the boat mast from sinking, but i think ti would be an impossible task to right a bigger boat solo with lines that run to the inside of the hulls.
  
  --
  1987 Nacra 5.8
  1978 Isotope (sold)
  --

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• goodsailing
  
  

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  Posted: Jul 10, 2015 - 09:18 PM

  Writing systems (lines) How do you use them.
  Well when writing copy, or lines of type, you can use them effectively pending word choices and sentence structure....
  
  OH Boat righting lines.. sorry...
  
  Get 4 pieces of big honking rope. Tie the front lines to the dolphin striker for each hull pending which one is tugged on. Tie the rear 2 somewhere, tramp. All lines go over the hull and tug. Each puller, boat righter, has their own independent line. That loop system is more for stowing the line, not righting the boat as boat captain and crew are tugging a connected rope and it's somewhat disconcerting tugging on a hull and your crew is tugging and tugging you perhaps also to the rear of the boat or vice versa as the rope is connected. It's a loop etc. Not good in my opinion. Use a 12mm line or larger, perhaps even with knots for grab holds. Stowing it.. well that's another story you can sort yourself....
  I believe you could get more leverage over the hulls but there are plenty here that will debate the physics of that pro and con, from over the hull, or from under. Fact is, what ever works for you will work. And make sure you maneuver the boat into the wind before heaving. Don't count on passer byers to help lift the mast.
  You don't need anything fancy for the rope.. line, as in a line of rope, if you know what I mean. Hope these lines are helpful.
  
  --
  Goodsailing
  
  Laser-Standard Rig (Sold 6/15)
  H18 (Sold 7/15)
  Building 19' Tacking Outrigger
  Balt-Wash Area
  --

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• CatsailorMike
  
  

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  Posted: Jul 11, 2015 - 10:22 AM

  here's what i use on my h-16. seems to work well.
  
  http://www.ebay.com/itm/BLUE-HOBIE-RIGHTING-LINE-NEW-HOBIE-CAT-16-18-17-/320688950057?hash=item4aaa8d0b29&vxp=mtr
  
  --
  Mike Conway
  H16
  Hilton, NY
  --

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• Andinista
  
  

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  Posted: Jul 12, 2015 - 11:44 AM

  Quote

  So if i understand, that means that the line does not go over the hull right? i guess it seems like you lose some potential mechanical advantage by having the lines anchored to the inside of the hull/tramp and not a line over the hull/outside of the hull. that additional lever arm makes a big difference when righting a large boat doesn't it? Did i miss something there?

  
  
  

  Quote

  I believe you could get more leverage over the hulls but there are plenty here that will debate the physics of that pro and con, from over the hull, or from under.

  
  
  If somebody were pulling the "writing line" from another boat it would make a difference, otherwise not. What matters is the force external to the system you are rightning (cat + you) and the torque it produces. In the first case the force is aligned with the writing line, in which case the lever arm is likely improved if it goes from above the hull. In the normal case, when you are pulling the line, the external force is gravity: vertical. And the lever arm is only increased if you get further out. The tension of the writing line will change if it comes from above or below the hulls, but this doesn't impact the righting torque, it's just an internal force for that matter (you will just charge a bit more or less the hull with your feet..). But still, the tension increase when running the line from below the hulls could be a good reason not to do so. The only benefit is to have a cleaner tramp and a more automatic system, no other. I personally have only experienced with the line from above the hulls, I would guess that it doesn't make much of a difference if you use your harness instead of your hands. But above all, I don't find it necessary to have a line dedicated just to right the boat and all the parafernalia of the bungee, etc. I like also to have a line availabe for other purposes (a towing line mainly), so I just attach a line to the mast base and keep it somehwere where it doesn't bother, if you want a clean tramp, I would say sew a pocket under it, it's more elegant than the bungee stuff in my opinion. By the way, the bungee system is meant for hobie 16 anyway, right? (write?). There it seems to make some more sense.
  
  
  
  Edited by Andinista on Jul 12, 2015 - 12:35 PM.

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• icon149
  
  

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  Posted: Jul 13, 2015 - 04:36 PM

  Thanks guys, I think I get it, and I think i'll stick with a simple line tied to the base of the mast that can be slung over the hull. That really seems like the simplest, most cost effective, and honestly probably effective "righting" system. I won't bother spending any money on a complete solution from Murray's. maybe save it for a righting bag.
  
  
  And not sure how i got write instead of right. but from now on i'll always be right with the words that I write.
  
  Appreciate the serious answers and the light hearted ribbing. I've never been one to proofread (i blame the ADD).
  
  --
  1987 Nacra 5.8
  1978 Isotope (sold)
  --

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• icon149
  
  

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  Posted: Sep 16, 2015 - 02:06 PM

  So just a follow up, and for prosperity's sake if anyone does a search, to use pbegle's method you actually need 30' of 7/16 line. I decided to add the righting line under my tramp after all, It will allow my crew/passenger to assist more easily and effectively. I also keep a 20' line tied to the mast base... (next time i'll measure before i shop).
  
  I didn't use blocks at the corners for the 7/16" line as they are rather expensive, i just used some turnbuckles that were sized appropriately. the line doesn't run smoothly through them like it will with a block, but the bungee can still hold it in place. i also used smaller bungee, 5/8" (largest available at my West marine, and conveniently fit a smaller block i had so total cost was reduced significantly. I haven't had a chance to try it out (for righting the boat) yet on the water, but it works as it should on the beach and the bungee keeps the line up and out of the water.
  
  Thanks for the advice and help.
  
  --
  1987 Nacra 5.8
  1978 Isotope (sold)
  --

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• davefarmer
  
  

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  Posted: Sep 17, 2015 - 02:17 AM

  The system Pete describes is also know as the Hawaiian righting system, and has the primary advantage of being very quick to deploy, which can often be very helpful, faster rightings, leading to less chance of turtling, or getting blown somewhere unpleasant. Also, if the line is adjusted to the proper length when deployed, skipper and crew can hook onto it with your harnesses, allowing full extension of your upper body, even arms over your head, for max righting moment.
  
  The single(or multiple( lines over the upper hull are simpler and cheaper, and can work just as well. There's been a lot of discussion about the physics of which system provides greater righting ability, on Catailor, if you want to pursue it. I've come away believing the camp that insists that it's the same for both, but this is clearly an area where personal preference rules.
  
  For any particular boat design, a certain amount of crew weight is going to be required to right it. Most 18' or longer cats are going to need more than the skipper's weight, so if you want to right it solo, you're likely to need a water bag, or possibly a SoloRight. I'm not sure if a standard righting pole adds significant leverage over a righting line, maybe if you're over 200 lbs you might pull it off. I have a righting pole on the F16 Stealth, that weighs 230 lbs, and I'm 160, and I can get it up reliably solo, but not by a lot. Had a Solo Right for the 280 lb F18HT, and could get it up solo reliably, though not quickly.
  
  Don't underestimate the additional difficulty of righting solo if it's really blowing hard(when you're more likely to go over). Orientation of the boat to the wind will dictate your success rate, and it can be problematic to manage it solo. I carry a drift sock on the bigger boats, that can be deployed off the lower bow, to keep the boat pointed into the wind, the orientation you want for righting. Also, if you don't get it properly oriented quickly, wind pressure on the tramp can contribute to turtling, And if you're not turtled, and it takes you a while to get it together, you'll be drifting downwind rapidly. Not a problem if you're a ways from shore, but is if you're not.
  
  All of which is a very long winded way of implying that it's time well spent fine tuning your righting system, and practicing with it, first in light air, then in the heavy stuff too, preferably with willing help nearby. But once you have it down, it adds hugely to your confidence in all conditions, and allows you to run close to the edge, where the big fun is!
  
  Dave
  
  
  
  Edited by davefarmer on Sep 17, 2015 - 12:19 AM.

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• icon149
  
  

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  Posted: Sep 17, 2015 - 05:21 PM

  Thanks Dave,
  
  it was actually the catsailor discussion and physics work that was done (I'm a sucker for a free body diagram) that made me rethink things and decided to add the Hawaiian system. I realized that the difference between the two when a boat is on it's side is marginal, and when the advantage of over the hull starts to become significant the boat is already well on it's way to being upright. I also realized that even though i am very comfortable dancing around on the hull of my capsized boat, my passengers/crew isn't always as comfortable there so the ability to quickly get them into position and put something in their hand to keep them stable and contributing made sense.
  
  Right now i sail in the Rappahannock river close to the bay, so i have a nice wide area to play, i almost always have someone available to rescue me on a jet ski when i go over solo. They are sitting on the dock with binoculars fishing and drinking (so the wait gets longer as the day progresses). I've only capsized it twice and each time i hardly had time to get the mast into the wind when a power boater would come buy and offer to pick up the mast. But my goal is to get comfortable enough that I can right the boat (with my wife/crew/or myself) that we can start taking longer trips and get further out into the bay. So i think this will be a big help when the time comes.
  
  On another note, How big of a righting bag should i have (180lb very athletic male) to right a 5.8 solo?
  
  I've seen them ranging from 90-240 lbs. i am hoping to just us a couple of spare blocks i have lying around to add a bit of purchase but nothing more than 2:1. I was thinking i would need at least 150lb bag, and i should be able to handle this with a simple pulley attached/hooked to the Hawaiian system. I'm worried anything bigger and i'd need an expensive pulley system to make it work. what is the experience here?
  
  Thanks,
  Conrad
  
  --
  1987 Nacra 5.8
  1978 Isotope (sold)
  --

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• Edchris177
  
  

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  Posted: Sep 17, 2015 - 10:36 PM

  Quote

  On another note, How big of a righting bag should i have (180lb very athletic male) to right a 5.8 solo?

  
  I think 150lb is overkill. You would need a 4:1 or so to handle it.
  I weight 170lb, & use a Colorado Bag Co "Big Bag". It is 80lb, & that is enough to right a 5.7 on a calm day.The more wind, the less you need.
  The trick is to hoist the bag right up to your shoulder, so when you hike out horizontally, the entire weight of the bag is helping right the boat.
  I use a 3:1, it makes hoisting the bag easy. I don't use the "hook". That end is secured to the bag, the other end to the appropriate place on the righting line. Don't forget, you need the cleat.
  
  
  --
  Hobie 18 Magnum
  Dart 15
  Mystere 6.0XL Sold Was a handful solo
  Nacra 5.7
  Nacra 5.0
  Bombardier Invitation (Now officially DEAD)
  Various other Dock cluttering WaterCrap
  --

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• davefarmer
  
  

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  Posted: Sep 18, 2015 - 12:31 PM

  Hey Ed,
  Where did you source the bag? I searched for Colorado Bag Co, unsuccessfully.
  
  dave

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• icon149
  
  

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  Posted: Sep 18, 2015 - 04:50 PM

  That makes me feel a lot better Ed,
  
  The murray's "big bag" kinda threw me off, at 250# capacity i was a little worried that i'd need a pretty big bag to get my 5.8 up out of the water. if you can right your 5.7 with an 8'6" beam, the 5.8 at 8' shouldn't be much more difficult.
  
  Anyone else use a righting bag and what are your experiences/likes dislikes, wishes?
  
  Thanks for the advice.
  Conrad
  
  --
  1987 Nacra 5.8
  1978 Isotope (sold)
  --

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• Edchris177
  
  

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  Posted: Sep 18, 2015 - 09:56 PM

  Quote

  Where did you source the bag? I searched for Colorado Bag Co, unsuccessfully.

  
  I got it online. Here are a few links...Bill404 21SE is active on this site, in the link,he has a post from this summer.
  If no joy, give Bill a PM & see if he has better intel.
  I bought mine about 5 years ago.
  http://www.hobiecat.com/f…ewtopic.php?f=10&t=55620
  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=05ntCcXUTP4
  http://stores.ebay.com/co…65&_trksid=p4634.c0.m322
  
  

  Quote

  if you can right your 5.7 with an 8'6" beam, the 5.8 at 8' shouldn't be much more difficult.

  
  My 5.7 is also an 8' beam.
  Looking at the ad, it says 160lb, that's 16 Imperial gallons. I was pretty sure it was only 80lb. I spoke with the owner when I bought it, IIRC, he said, "80lbs is a lot of water".
  Maybe I'm getting old & senile. I'll pull it off the tramp in the next couple of days & see what it actually holds. I;m pretty sure it is not 24" deep.
  I did add a 2' piece of webbing to the bottom. I let it "dangle". It can be used to secure the bag on boat, but the most important use is retrieving the bag after use.
  It can be a real chore in a big blow,the bag becomes a sea anchor, trailing at the end of the righting line. It is easy to pull yourself(cat) to the bag, but hard to hoist it onboard. Just grab the trailing strap, the bag trips, & empties.
  
  
  
  Edited by Edchris177 on Sep 18, 2015 - 10:01 PM.
  
  --
  Hobie 18 Magnum
  Dart 15
  Mystere 6.0XL Sold Was a handful solo
  Nacra 5.7
  Nacra 5.0
  Bombardier Invitation (Now officially DEAD)
  Various other Dock cluttering WaterCrap
  --

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• pknapp66
  
  

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  Posted: Sep 19, 2015 - 09:14 AM

  icon149

  That makes me feel a lot better Ed,
  
  The murray's "big bag" kinda threw me off, at 250# capacity i was a little worried that i'd need a pretty big bag to get my 5.8 up out of the water. if you can right your 5.7 with an 8'6" beam, the 5.8 at 8' shouldn't be much more difficult.
  
  Anyone else use a righting bag and what are your experiences/likes dislikes, wishes?
  Thanks for the advice.
  Conrad

  
  
  We also bought a Colorado bag I think from ebay several years ago. Our crew weight is only about #300 and can't quite right the H18 in calm conditions. With the bag over one crews shoulder the boat snaps right over.
  The bag seems quite rugged. I have heard stories of some of the bags leaking so bad the water runs right out. This bag seeps some but works great. I have a small block setup from a vang that I am setting up for the Nacra 6.0. Wider beam and mores sail area I think will need it. The bag came with a storage bag with plastic clips to hook to the lacing under the tramp. We had it attached to the under side of the rear lacing on the H18 and first timeout the waves were quite large and ripped the storage bag and one of the clips off. Now we just pack it tightly in a tramp pocket. Could use the storage bag above deck. Overall if you are close to righting weight the
  bag is a simple solution.
  
  Pete
  
  
  
  Edited by pknapp66 on Sep 19, 2015 - 09:15 AM.
  
  --
  Pete Knapp
  Schodack landing,NY
  Goodall Viper,AHPC Viper,Nacra I20
  --

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• davefarmer
  
  

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  Posted: Sep 19, 2015 - 05:01 PM

  Water is about 8 lbs per US gallon, chances are you won't pull more than 3/4s of the capacity of the bag in a hurry. You need 3 to 1 purchase to pull up a biggish bag, a double fiddle blk with a jam cleat, and a single w/ becket at the bag, the whole assembly permanently attached to the bag, so it won't get away, and quicker to deploy.
  
  Ed's tab on the bottom of the bag is a great idea, you really have to empty out the bag in the water, it's way too heavy to drag onboard. And getting it out of the water quickly is paramount, in breezy conditions the boat wants to take off, and you don't want to be fighting a sea anchor.
  
  dave
  
  
  
  Edited by davefarmer on Sep 19, 2015 - 06:24 PM.

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• Edchris177
  
  

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  Posted: Sep 25, 2015 - 11:18 PM

  Quote

  The murray's "big bag" kinda threw me off, at 250# capacity i was a little worried that i'd need a pretty big bag to get my 5.8 up out of the water.

  
  Conrad, I stand corrected. I pulled mine off today & measured it. It is in fact 24" deep, appx 16" diameter.
  Do the math, it comes out to appx 4825 cu in, which translates to 17 Imp Gal x 10lb/gal = 170lbs.
  Now, the bottom will bulge vs flat, & I have never been able to have it more than appx 3/4 full when deployed, so maybe 130-140lbs is realistic.
  The fabric does not leak, though a very small amount does come through the stitching.
  

  Quote

  You need 3 to 1 purchase to pull up a biggish bag, a double fiddle blk with a jam cleat, and a single w/ becket at the bag, the whole assembly permanently attached to the bag, so it won't get away, and quicker to deploy.

  
  Dave is correct, a 3:1 with cleat is required. With it set up as my photo above, it is pretty easy to hoist up to where the webbing on top of the bag will be at shoulder height. Then just step inside, grab the righting line & hike out. With the bag appx 3/4 full, on a dead calm, my 5.7 comes right up. The stronger the wind, with mast pointing into wind, the less water you need. At 20mph, I don't need it.
  
  --
  Hobie 18 Magnum
  Dart 15
  Mystere 6.0XL Sold Was a handful solo
  Nacra 5.7
  Nacra 5.0
  Bombardier Invitation (Now officially DEAD)
  Various other Dock cluttering WaterCrap
  --

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