Which Cat to buy?
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- Rank: Lubber
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Posted: Jul 23, 2015 - 06:24 PM
I've had Hobies; 14, 16, and 18. The 18 seemed like too much for me on windy days with significant Tampa Bay chop, but looking back, I don't think I really understood how to effectively depower it. I don't want to pitch-pole - too old for that I think. I want a 21SE - dreamt about that since they were new in about 1989. I want something fast, but I also kinda want that forward tramp for guests/kids. I want to be able to go fast, tolerate the chop, avoid pitch-pole, be able to take several people if I choose. And I see these ARC22 and ARC28, expensive but very cool looking, and very tempting... and a big stretch, for many reasons, but that seems like a bucket-list item. The other thing about big boats like the ARC22 and larger is storage and trailering. The Gcat seems interesting, with the forward tramp. I dream about the H21SE, but I hate to say it, but that forward tramp really appeals to me. Tell me your ideas everyone: heavy chop, pitch-poling, etc -
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Posted: Jul 23, 2015 - 07:58 PM
To clarify the H21SE is 10' wide and does not have a front tramp. The H21SC has front tramp, 8' wide with smaller sailplan. I grew up sailing a Supercat 20, similar to ARC22, which is 12' wide. Wide boats are awesome on the water, but tough to trailer sail.
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Scott,
‘92 H18 w/SX wings
‘95 Hobie Funseeker 12 (Holder 12)
‘96/‘01/‘14 Hobie Waves
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Posted: Jul 23, 2015 - 08:57 PM
Get the 21SE and build to suit.....I would like a forward net tramp attached to a new forward cross bar built from a Hobie 18 boom. Install a hull rail for this net tramp to slide through just like the main tramp uses. Add a top down roll furling spinnaker on a 13' pole.........now party like rock stars.....
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Bill 404 21SE
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Posted: Jul 24, 2015 - 01:57 AM
I have a SC 20 and an ARC 22, and a big fan of wide, powerful boats. These boats have well designed, buoyant bows, but apply enough power and they can be driven under, any boat can. The key is to recognize when you're approaching being overpowered, and either retire or drive with extreme concentration, acknowledging the possibility of crashing. This applies to all cats, you can chose those with greater pitchpole resistance, or lesser, it's mostly about knowing where your particular boat's limits are, and acting appropriately.
These bigger wider boats do have great stability thru fairly wide wind range, but as mentioned, they're a lot more work to trailer sail. Great if you can keep them mast up near the water, and have the manpower or mechanical assistance to handle the beast on shore. I can solo the 22 up to about 12 kts of breeze, then I'm on shaky ground, because it's got tons of sail area, a magnificent light air machine. But every cat has an upper wind limit, the question is how close to it do you like to operate. For me, that's where the adrenaline is, and that, apparently is what drives me.
Then there's the issue of righting a bigger boat, both the 20 and the 22 have the shroud extending system that makes it possible to right either one with about 350 lbs of crew weight. Which rules out self righting solo. So either you sail very conservatively, or you rely on other boaters for rescue.
We had a fwd net on the 22 when we first got it, but after the first pitchpole it was gone. They are wonderful for the added lounge/storage area, and access to the jib. But the price is that when you do stuff a bow, the fwd beam and netting add a substantial amount of drag that slows the boat quickly, rapidly moving the apparent wind aft, not a good thing when the boat's in that position. So, fwd net is good for a cruiser who isn't interested sailing near the edge, not so good if you plan to drive the boat hard, and need those extra few seconds to blow the sheets and recover when the bow heads down the mine.
Another note, although these bigger boats allow you to bring more folks with you, be aware that you can exceed the design limits of the rig if you have too much weight aboard when it's blowing hard. The ARC is limited to 500 lbs of crew when it's fully powered up, double trapped.
So how powered up a boat you chose, and what comforts it has/you develop, should be related to how you see yourself using the boat. All the cats you mentioned interest in are nice, pick what suits your particular needs the best, always a challenge. Buy right, and you can always sell it and try something else.
Dave -
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Posted: Jul 24, 2015 - 02:36 AM
Thank you all for your posts.
davefarmer said: "...solo the 22 up to about 12 kts of breeze....". That reminds me of another question.... I can surely make some gains by reefing down, right? Like maybe on an ARC22 reef the main down to grab a few more knots of comfort/safety?
Thanks too about the comments about shroud-extender. I wondered if that was even possible with anything more than a H21SE. (PS: It was in about 1989 that I caught a ride on bill40421SE's H21SE, and that experience has stuck in my head all these years, and it's why I'm here considering my next catamaran phase. Thanks Bill - amazing how I stumbled upon you on the internet 1,000 miles away, near 25 years later.)
Forward-tramp - pictch-poling: I do see the forward-tramp being a problem, for when I want to go fast, and I usually will be wanting to go fast, but... but if I want to run 4 or 5 folks out to a nearby island or across the bay on a nice day, I'd love to be able to add the forward tramp for days like that.
500-pound limit: Wow. Sorry to ask seemingly elementary question - what is that limit about... I mean if I exeed 500 and I'm near over powered am I just burying the bow often, by exceeding the limit, or somehow risking busting hardware?
These are great posts. Thank you all. I'm a very sentimental person, memories, life... it's that H21SE that I really think I should wind up with, but those larger boats are not out of the question... I can imagine a smooth fast ride in light winds.
Thank you all -
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Posted: Jul 24, 2015 - 12:17 PM
500 lb limit? Ask davidveenstra who has ad in classifieds (parts wanted) for a mast for his Mystere 6.0 which is a near carbon copy of a Tornado. How did you break your mast, David? "sailing in heavy air with 800 lbs on board" Pete -
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Posted: Jul 24, 2015 - 12:23 PM
We had reef points added to the main on the 22, but never got around to solving the halyard issue. Because of the hook/ring system that secures the head to the masthead is important to maintain on this boat, relying on the halyard to hold the head of the main in the lower reefed position, increased the compression on the mast, a mast that's already highly stressed. So a method of connecting the head to the hook needs to be developed, which would probably involve lowering and rehoisting the mainsail, not an easy task in the conditions in which you need to be reefing. It would be easier off the water, or in some protected cove. Other masts might be better suited to a reefing system, but do be aware of the potential difficulty of doing the reefing operation on the water when it's honking, and you're trying to keep the boat pointed into the wind while fussing with lowering, reattaching to the new clew and tack, and tying off the excess sail.
The risk on the SC/ARC products of overloading the boat in significant pressure, is that something will break, although you're correct that additional weight aboard will be pressing the hulls deeper in the water, making it easier for a bow to go down. Generally, boat designers size all the hardware for certain loads, which are usually limited by the boat heeling/tipping over before those loads are reached. If you exceed those limits by loading up the platform, things can fail. Some boats may have a greater safety factor built in, lightweight, high performance boats tend to have less.
I can imagine a removable forward tramp, although it would be beneficial to have it designed so it rigs and derigs quickly/easily. And a full fwd net needs a pretty substantial forward beam to support net loads, and in my experience, just the beam, even without the net, would significantly aggravate the bow down issue. Aquarius (ARC mfgr) offers a triangular fwd net that provides some additional area without the need for a beam, and doesn't add drag inducing material near the bows. Maybe an option to pursue. Look cool too. Also, expect to use netting vs tramp material. You're adding wind resistance to the platform when the boat is heeled, which works against you in a near capsize position, and the net material allows more air to pass thru the fabric.
I have a set of Hyfield levers for sale if you wanted to pursue a shroud extending system for a boat without them, but it relys on the mast being captive to the mast step to perform properly. So you may have to modify that arrangement as well. I can provide pics if you want to pursue that.
Dave -
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Posted: Jul 24, 2015 - 06:31 PM
Stiletto 23 if you don't care about portability. I have been sailing with 6 of us on the wings, and two of those on the wire. I never felt that I was ever in any danger of pitch-pole, but I have seen them do front cartwheels on Lake Hefner in OKC. There is a H 21 Sportcat for sale for $5500 in my club if you just want to go faster than most of the sailboats. I will relay his info if you are interested.
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Peyton Adair
Prindle 18 classic
Hobie 17
Hobie Wave
Wichita KS
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Posted: Jul 24, 2015 - 10:47 PM
That's a good price on the H21. A lot of boat for the money, if it's in good condition. Another boat to consider if load capacity is important, the Reynolds 21, also shows up for around $5K occasionally. But heavy, needs a berth or mast up trailer storage, takes 2 to 4 hrs to assemble/break down. I know of a nice one in north Idaho (my old boat) for sale.
Dave -
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Posted: Jul 25, 2015 - 08:56 AM
Thank you all. All of this is helpful. Hope to hear more. Mike -
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Posted: Jul 25, 2015 - 01:15 PM
And that is why the big live-a-board Cats carry generally undersized, less powerful rigs. The big Cats don't really heel, so you don't have the feed back that the rig is under strain. With a larger sail plan, you would be breaking a lot of expensive gear without warning.
I had a full front tramp for the Mystere 6XL. There was enough real estate for the kids to play badminton!
That said, I ended up removing it. Small kids loved being right at the front, but you only wanted to do that under cruising conditions.
A full tramp is not a 10 minute job to remove or install. You need to feed into two tracks, then lace the rear, then the front & tighten. The 6XL was a 10', there was a lot of crawling back & forth.
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Hobie 18 Magnum
Dart 15
Mystere 6.0XL Sold Was a handful solo
Nacra 5.7
Nacra 5.0
Bombardier Invitation (Now officially DEAD)
Various other Dock cluttering WaterCrap
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