Hi, I'm still a noob so here is one of my gybe's we underestimated. I know we've done things wrong. we've studied the video and will make significant changes to gybe's especially in high wind. Anyway enjoy a little video. let me know what you think.
https://www.youtube.com/w…VEpvr7s&feature=youtu.be
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1988 Nacra 5.2
YouTube link to see boat in action:
https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLddinE6IorSrPpZrlvcwAjRzSIQsKYPG1
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First decent video, "Gybe flip" with my Nacra 5.2 Sailing in Dauphin Island, Alabama.
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Posted: Dec 19, 2015 - 08:25 PM
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Posted: Dec 19, 2015 - 10:20 PM
Nice video and what a training tool.
What I see.........
Both the main traveler and sheet remain cleated as the stern comes through the eye of the wind. I find that in heavy/shifty air it may be helpful to release both after you have control of the mainsheet system with one hand (and boom centered) right before the wind catches the main and takes it to the port side. Having them both released gives you a shock absorber/breaker effect that will help prevent over-powering in this situation.
Your crew is fighting to release the jib sheet, but it too remains cleated through the kerplunk.
My opinion is that you both stayed on the lee side way too long. Try getting to the center on all fours in these conditions so weight can be adjusted more quickly.
Respectfully Submitted,
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Hobie 16 (3 formerly)
MacGregor 25 (formerly)
Chrysler Dagger 14 (formerly)
NACRA 5.0 (currently)
High Point, NC
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Posted: Dec 19, 2015 - 11:40 PM
Great video--sailing with a GoPro running is great, because you never know when something exciting is going to happen.
Here's a lesson I learned the hard way (I capsized in much the same manner, in 25-30 knots): When sailing downwind, speed is your friend. On a windy day, especially if you are out in conditions that are stronger than you are used to/comfortable in, it may feel safer to sail close to dead-downwind. The boat isn't moving too fast, both hulls are in the water, and you feel like you are in control---that is, until you go to gybe. The problem with this approach is that the apparent wind (the wind you feel on your face, and the wind that the sails experience) stays behind the boat. When you go to gybe, this causes the sails to cross violently, leading to rapid change in heel, and occasionally, as you discovered, capsizes.
So, what to do? Sail the boat a little faster, at a higher angle (not ddw), especially right before a gybe, and turn the boat through the gybe relatively quickly (so as not to slow down too much before completing the gybe). This keeps the apparent wind further forward on the boat, and when done well, makes a gybe peaceful and controlled, even in rough conditions. It might seem counter-intuitive, but once you get the feel for it, you will realize that sailing the boat faster puts you in a lot more control--gybes go smoothly and easily, and the effect of gusts is reduced. Give it a try and see how it goes! -
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Posted: Dec 20, 2015 - 09:46 AM
I agree with above. It looks like you entered the gybe much too deep and too slow. Head up a few degrees, get the boat going faster, and then make a smooth, committed turn. After the mainsail flips, straighten out the rudders so the boat is sailing deep on the new tack until you regain control. Then turn up to build speed on the new tack. You can see in the video that after your sail flips, the rudders stay turned which allows the boat to head up on the new tack causing the boat to fly a hull. Only after the boat is nearly over do you straighten out the rudders and by that point, it's too late.
It also looks like the jib was sheeted too tight for the downwind heading and the jib was never uncleated even after you flipped (actually both sails look like they're sheeted too tight, but certainly the jib). You definitely want to uncleat the jib before righting the boat so she doesn't sail away from you after being righted.
Watch out for that upper hull while righting the boat. It looks like you nearly got taken out when it came down.
Last, you definitely want your dagger boards up at least 1/2 way when sailing downwind in a strong breeze. This will help to prevent the boat from "tripping" over itself and capsizing.
On another note, what's up with the main block connection to the boom? It looks like it's tied/cleated to the boom with a trapeeze adjuster. I would not trust one of those aluminum clamcleats to support the load of a fully sheeted mainsheet system.
sm
Edited by Dogboy on Dec 20, 2015 - 10:00 AM. -
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Posted: Dec 20, 2015 - 12:06 PM
thanks for the reply and suggestions. I was suggested to keep things cleated on main on most tacks' so I'm curious if I applied this on a gybe as a mistake. I definitely see what you mean by a "shock absorber" because it had no give and hit hard as you could see. I noticed in the video as well that the jib was still cleated, I reached around and uncleated it as well as main before we flipped the boat. And I TOTALLY agree with you that we were "lazy" in getting over to the other side of the boat especially my crew. We will make serious changes to our routine for this. I am finding myself a bit lost downwind, this is my first 1/2 season sailing so I get a bit nervous especially downwind. wind "near" that location was reporting 22mph, with 26 gusts if I remember right, it was VERY gusty comming from the north over the land and a bit intimidating.
This is super interesting, that as you slow apparent wind changes and your gybe direction or plan my have a different outcome. Reading these things are what make me a bit uneasy and lost when down wind in heavy air. I'm told again and again, that speed is your friend and I get the physics of the push on the sail, but I just get a bit uneasy when I can't "turn off the power" like when you're traveling upwind. I can see how a higher speed gybe can reduce the amount of violence because you maintain a closer wind vs boat speed. I will have to really focus on this maybe get a veteran on board next spring and do some gybe's figure out where this wind is coming from.
upper hull while righting: watching the video I have noticed this as well. This was the first time my wife has righted anything and a first time for me which wasn't done as practice. I'm considering splitting the righting line into 2 ends that 2 people can grab, we were pulling into each other and was pretty odd, which resulted in a less controlled fall that I had hoped for.
dagger boards up downwind: Interesting, the idea does make since with drag pushing on the bow. I'll have to look into this.
Main block connection: This is my first boat and is a powerful one at that so I'm learning. but the main sheet has a tapperd main line so keeping the taper in the proper location was the goal I believe. The boat was totally turn key when I got it with tons of goodies so I didn't want to mess with much. However, I have been thinking that I'd like to get rid of that situation in some way. clean it up a bit. Never thought the clamcleat could break but now that you mention it. Nice observation, I'll be kicking around idea's for that as well.
So anyway thanks for the positive criticism. glad you liked the video I may add more footage of the week to it. Next season I'll try to get make a few more with some better sailing as well :)
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1988 Nacra 5.2
YouTube link to see boat in action:
https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLddinE6IorSrPpZrlvcwAjRzSIQsKYPG1
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Posted: Dec 20, 2015 - 03:50 PM
Those clam cleats are cast aluminum and they're designed to hold the weight of a person on the trapeeze (I would guess they have a rated working load of something like 300 LBS). You mainsheet system looks like it is 10:1, which would easily be capable of generating a force in excess of 1000 LBS.
You should be pulling up the dagger boards anytime you're sailing downwind. The only exception to that would be if you're trying to fly a hull downwind (doing the wild thing or sailing with a spinnaker). In high wind, you always want the boards pulled up going downwind. In fact, if you're getting seriously overpowered upwind, you can pull them up a little bit then too.
Sailing downwind in a breeze is always hairy. That's what makes it fun. There is no easy way to stop the boat. You have to steer carefully, watch for every wave, keep your weight back, and have a really good feel for how the boat handles. Even then, you can still lose it.
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Posted: Dec 21, 2015 - 10:47 AM
do you have a furling jib? if you don't have one, ... may be a nice upgrade just to be able to depower when needed.
In "real" wind, I typically leave my jib furled as i push off the beach ... until i have all other things 100% set and am sure i wan't more power -
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Posted: Dec 22, 2015 - 01:13 PM
i experienced my first pitchpole on my NACRA 18 square this morning. i was on a broad reach and a gust hit so hard and fast that i was over before i could react. very exciting. -
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Posted: Dec 23, 2015 - 06:46 PM
Your crew has good upper body strength, and held on well after the capsize.
She has a good head, except that she sails with you! :) jk
When it flipped, she grabbed the mast base. She should look for something else. A rotating mast, with hard rotation stops, can remove a finger.
Your entire post is full of pointers that we all can learn from. I will be training my crews to not grab the base when we flip.
Thanks for your post.
Great heads-up to us all.
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Bob
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Prindle 18-2 #244 "Wakizashi"
Prindle 16 #3690 "Pegasus" Sold (sigh)
AZ Multihull Fleet 42 member
(Way) Past Commodore of Prindle Fleet 14
Arizona, USA
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Posted: Dec 24, 2015 - 01:01 PM
Yikes, Good call! - she should grab on the hiking straps
I just turned off the music and watched the actual moment of gybe again.
as other's said... Lots of learning moments
We have ALL done it too - it's how we really learn what "not to do"
I went through my sail window in a new to me mystere 5.5 with a poorly executed gybe in 20 knots. What i learned is, try to save it if you can ... but Don't fight it. Find a safe way out if your going over
I saw you gybed ... was overpowered and held on to the boom/blocks.. you held on well (and your crew was alert and ducked, that could have been real bad id she wasn't alert) but you then attempted to steer and you that (with a gust) slammed you off the (now sidewaze) tramp and into your boom/sail (looks like only your lower leg,, could have been worse)
I tell new crew a few things before we go sailing
1 how to stop the boat if i fall off
and
2 how to capsize correctly:
don't fall into/hit the boom
try to avoid the sail, but if you have to hit my sail PLEASE jump through the window
(this no longer applies to my 6.O with wings)
Edited by MN3 on Dec 24, 2015 - 01:02 PM. -
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Posted: Dec 26, 2015 - 07:46 PM
More years ago than I care to admit the guy who taught me to sail also taught me what he called a "safety gybe." He taught me to sail a very broad reach and haul the sales in close. That does two things: first, sailing that deep dramatically decreases the apparent wind strength - you are almost on a run. Second, the sails are significantly de-powered in that configuration. When you gybe, you go through the eye, but only just: the goal is to get yourself on a very broad reach on the opposite tack. The result is a small turn in low apparent wind with de-powered sails that only flip a small distance when they go. You can leave them cleated too - when they go it's rather an anti-climax. Then when you have yourself in the right spot on the tramp you can ease out the sails, bring yourself a little further into the wind and then start cranking on that new tack without all the gybe drama.
It's definitely not a quick way to turn, but it's super-safe for when you are learning. The nice thing is that you can build up the speed and the drama as you get more confident. The main thing to focus on, as with any turn, is not to use the tiller as a lever to move yourself around on the tramp. For this safety gybe you have to kill the turn to keep yourself on that deep, de-powered configuration until you are ready to go for it.
One last thing: if you are in fluky conditions and you just don't feel comfortable with the gybe, then go ahead and tack. You may have to go through 270 degrees to make a 90 degree turn, but it's the guaranteed safe option. OK, you lose a few cool points, but if you don't want to risk a flip then safety is kinda cool IMO.
Edited by sjbrit on Dec 26, 2015 - 07:47 PM.
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H16 back in the day
SC17 right now
Bradenton, FL
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Posted: Dec 28, 2015 - 09:11 AM
After watching the video, wearing a helmet makes a lot of sense...
What boat is it? -
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Posted: Dec 28, 2015 - 06:10 PM
thanks for all these replies and advise. There is tons of info in here I'll have to look into these details. I have a question "MN3" you said jump through the window. What is considered the window? the area between the sail and boom, the boom and the tramp? where is the "window." thanks.
In the flip I attempted to hang onto the boat but at the time couldn't find anything quick enough, so knowing that I was going over and probably couldn't get away from failing into the sails, I somewhat successfully tried to roll onto my back slightly curled to minimize the impact on the sail. I did NOT want to jump feet first or in any "pointy" position. I have really nice sails which I don't want to replace.
"Ansinista" the boat is a 1988 Nacra 5.2 with lots of upgrades and updated parts (bought it that way).
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1988 Nacra 5.2
YouTube link to see boat in action:
https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLddinE6IorSrPpZrlvcwAjRzSIQsKYPG1
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Posted: Dec 29, 2015 - 09:36 AM
I thought so. It looks pretty cool -
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Posted: Dec 29, 2015 - 08:46 PM
What everyone else said. I would also add that in heavy wind you should do an "S" turn. Turn enough up to the new windward side to gybe and when the boom is coming across, turn down so you are not on so much of a reach when the boat loads up. This is only a technique that is used in capsize conditions. Good luck and enjoy the 5.2. -
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Posted: Dec 30, 2015 - 09:46 AM
My window can be seen (White Spin) - the other boat (black spin) does not have a window
if you have no window you should try to go under the boom... or land in the sail ... just not the boom (can break bones)
"when things go as planned" ... when going over, I drop the tiller extension (i have broken a few trying to hold on to them), slide down the tramp (but try to clear any cleats/blocks) and hold on to the mainsheet for dear life. in heavy air a boat can sail away from you on its side... and even fast swimmers will typically not be able to catch it...
Edited by MN3 on Dec 30, 2015 - 09:47 AM.
