I want to mount a 12 volt winch on my trailer to help raise/lower the mast, and pull the cat up onto the trailer out of the water.
1. How (weld or u-bolt) and where did you mount the winch to the trailer?
2. What winch do you recommend?
3. Do you use a snatch block up high on the mast support to get a better pull angle? Is it permanent or removable?
4. Did you permanently wire it to your tow vehicle (with disconnects) Or use battery clips?
Thanks in advance for your help!
Bob
Edited by klozhald on Oct 01, 2016 - 06:54 PM.
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How did you mount your electric winch on your trailer?
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Posted: Oct 01, 2016 - 06:04 PM
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Posted: Oct 02, 2016 - 02:11 PM
I don't have an electric winch but I think mounting a manual is about the same.
1) About waist high on the mast support. If you bolt it on you can get it off in the field if you need to replace it.
2) The best you can afford with a manual backup handle. Because if it fails your screwed.
3) Yes. My mast support telescopes up to about 10'-0". I have a keel roller up there that I put the strap from the winch through. It's permanent but a temporary snatch block for a wire or rope winch would serve.
4) If I had an electric winch I would use Anderson connectors so I could connect it to the truck or a separate battery.
The thing about an electric winch is you won't be able to feel the rig if an undue strain occurs. On my rig I can feel if something is binding within one turn of the crank. Not that I haven't considered an electric winch but I have a 15' SC an electric winch would be overkill.
http://www.batterymart.co…_r_u_NvM8CFQtahgod3-QFqg
I link this only for reference. No endorsement is implied.
Let us know how it works out,good luck GH
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Posted: Oct 03, 2016 - 01:44 AM
been using electric winches for years to raise/lower the mast and pull the cat onto the trailer.
i bought a 2500lb winch with wireless remote control from harbor freight and it's made hauling my cat onto the trailer a piece of cake! i mounted it on the forward mast support and power it with a Superwinch wiring kit that i wired back to my engine. it comes with plenty of wire length. i only connect it to the battery when i'm using it.
http://www.harborfreight.…emote-control-61840.html
https://www.amazon.com/Su…Wiring-Kit/dp/B00008PWWJ
the wireless remote lets me stand near the back of the boat and guide it onto the trailer. single handed loading.
i made a gin pole to raise & lower the mast using the electric winch.
j
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Posted: Oct 03, 2016 - 01:11 PM
The Harbor freight link doesn't get there. Do you mount a turning block on the trailer tongue to pull the gin pole?
Is it this one?
http://www.harborfreight.…emote-control-61840.html
Edited by gahamby on Oct 03, 2016 - 02:15 PM.
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Posted: Oct 03, 2016 - 04:16 PM
This is KEY
I would be very hesitant to use a stock trailer mast support / winch to step or drop the mast
A gin pole uses a lever to reduce the forces needed to step a mast - (we just stepped a 45' f31R mast with a 8' jin pole and hand trailer winch - try doing that witout a jin pole ....) -
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Posted: Oct 03, 2016 - 05:02 PM
I thought a gin pole was used to create the proper angle of purchase.
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Posted: Oct 03, 2016 - 06:14 PM
not sure what "angle of purchase" means but...
the main goal of the pole is to reduce the "weight" of the mast by means of a fulcrum and lever to "increase the applied force in order to lift a heavy load"
You can use a lever to increase the applied force in order to lift a heavy load. Class 1 or Class 2 levers are used to increase the output force.
Lever force equation
Assuming the resistive friction force at the fulcrum is negligible, the relationship between the input or effort and force on the load is dependent on the ratio of the arms of the lever, according to the equation:
FO/FI = dI/dO
where
FO is the output force or the load (can also be the weight lifted)
FI is the effort or input force
dI is the length of the effort or input arm
dO is the length of the load or output arm
Note: FO/FI is also the force mechanical advantage of the lever.
(See Force Mechanical Advantage for more information.)
Derivation
The derivation of this equation starts with the fact that work is a product of the force times the distance moved or displacement:
WI = FIDI
WO = FODO
where
WI is the work done by the effort or input work
FI is the effort or input force
DI is the input distance the effort moves
and
FO is the output force or the load (can also be the weight lifted)
DO is the output distance the load is moved
WO is the work done by the load or output work
According to the Law of Conservation of Energy, the output energy or work equals the input work:
WO = WI
Thus:
FODO = FIDI
DO/DI = FO/FI
Applying this relationship to the distance equation (DO/DI = dO/dI) for levers, you get:
FO/FI = dI/dO
(See Increasing Distance Moved with a Lever for more information.)
Application
How much effort is required to lift a load of 20 kilograms when the effort arm is 10 meters and the load arm is 1 meter?
Start by solving FOdO= FIdI for FI:
FI = FOdO/dI
Substitute in values:
FO = 20 kg
dO = 0.5 m
dI = 2 m
FI = 20*(0.5)/2 = 5 kg push required to lift the 20 kg weight.
Summary
You can use a Class 1 or Class 2 lever to increase the force pushing on the load, according to where the fulcrum is located. To increase the force on the load, the length of the effort arm of the lever must be greater than the length of the load arm.
The equation for the forces relates to the force mechanical advantage of the lever. The force equation is:
FO/FI = dI/dO
From the equation, you can determine an unknown force or length. -
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Posted: Oct 03, 2016 - 06:31 PM
Love it, this is the kind of crazily detailed answers we got on the hobielist back in the '90's when most of the members were engineers and pilots.
My version: The gin pole is a lever that makes it easier to raise the mast.
I agree about not attaching a power winch directly to the mast support where the hand winch is attached on most catamaran trailers. Most stock trailers have a pretty weak mast support, they are only designed to be something to support the weight of the mast (downward) and don't have much strength when pulled back towards the boat.
I've only seen a couple of successful power winch installs and they had a custom very strong mast support and the power winch was mounted to the main frame of the trailer and not to the support.
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Posted: Oct 03, 2016 - 06:35 PM
That's all very impressive. The gin pole picks up the lift line so instead of pulling straight down the mast you have a usable angle to lift or lower the mast. I do the same thing with a tall mast support. How many people do you imagine can or will go through all the above calculations before they come up with a mast raising rig? From an engineering standpoint it's the right thing to do. Instead of all that calculation show us what the load is at the mast attachment, the turn at the gin pole, the turning block and winch for the 45' mast you raised.
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Posted: Oct 03, 2016 - 07:03 PM
show you the load? haha
you can see the process here - around the 10 min and 13 min mark
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eqsbJn475_g -
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Posted: Oct 03, 2016 - 07:19 PM
I'm familiar with the process of standing up a spar with a gin pole. How would you reinforce a mast support to accomplish what the OP had in mind?
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Posted: Oct 03, 2016 - 07:48 PM
I wouldn't
it is a recipe for catastrophic failure
On all my cats, i turn them around so i can use the mast support to "angle"my mast so i can easily get under it and solo step it
on my 6.0 the fabricator created a extendable yoke
Edited by MN3 on Oct 03, 2016 - 08:29 PM. -
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Posted: Oct 03, 2016 - 07:54 PM
I have an EZ-LOADER trailer and the mast support has bracing on it going from the mast support to the tongue of the trailer, I assume it came this way from the factory as it looks original. I would like to add a small hand crank winch just for help in loading the boat, for now, I raise the mast by hand.
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Posted: Oct 03, 2016 - 08:36 PM
I had a gusset welded on my mast support down at the base. The mast support leans forward on my trailer. I had allowed for a cable from the top of the support to the tongue but found I didn't need it. Two of the guys I sail with trail turned around. One uses a gin pole with the lift line secured to whatever fixed point is handy at the ramp. The other goes Iwo Jima style with a person on belay with the jib halyard out front. Once he gets the mast to shoulder height the belay line has a usable angle and the guy out front can help pull up.
http://www.thebeachcats.c…ictures?g2_itemId=103408
Edited by gahamby on Oct 03, 2016 - 10:05 PM.
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Posted: Oct 03, 2016 - 08:39 PM
I dig the gray paint job.
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Posted: Oct 03, 2016 - 08:52 PM
The thing is every powerboat trailer I have ever seen has a winch on a winch post at waist height. They winch on some heavy boats. If you led your lift line down to the tongue, through a snatch block and up to the gin pole you wouldn't be putting on more strain than you would for recovering the boat. All the mast supports I've encountered are just a taller winch post.
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Posted: Oct 03, 2016 - 09:00 PM
thanks, Imron on the hulls, awegrip on the spars
Edited by MN3 on Oct 03, 2016 - 09:02 PM. -
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Posted: Oct 03, 2016 - 09:06 PM
Yes but this "design" is to move a floating boat up a few feet (or inches) until the hull kisses the bow stop. and it is pulling in a straight line... -
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Posted: Oct 04, 2016 - 04:34 AM
Here is what I am hearing:
I like the idea of the harbor freight ATV winch. They sell two model numbers of the same unit, and one has a lag in the wireless controller that lets it run for a second or two after you release the button. Not good if you have snagged something while raising the mast. Also, to use this winch with the four roller fairlead included, you have to also purchase the mounting plate from Harbor Freight. I like the bolt (vs weld) idea.
Wireless power control lets you be one of the people controlling the swing of the mast from the side or back of the boat as it goes up. You can also look for potential snags.
I envision mounting the winch at the base of the mast support facing up, and using a removable snatch block at the top of the support to send the cable back to the boat. The mast support will be strengthened with a support that leads from pretty high on the mast support to the front of the trailer tongue. This may be standing rigging cable and u-bolts. This will work well for loading the cat on the trailer, but raising and lowering the mast will clearly require a gin pole.
If feels dumb writing this, but I have a problem paying more for the wiring kit than the winch. I found a 20 foot set of 6 ga copper wire jumper cables online, with which I could make a permanent 2-wire harness, using the proper connectors and a circuit breaker. If left connected, the winches continue to draw a bit of power, so disconnects are a must.
To leave the winch on the trailer, it will need a waterproof, trailerable cover. This I can fashion from Top Gun material or something similar.
Thanks everyone for your advice and photos.
If you haven't jumped in here and have something to add, please do.
If you disagree, let 'er rip!
I have no ego about asking for advice.
All of it valuable.
Bob
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Posted: Oct 04, 2016 - 11:57 AM
My objection to this would be the possibility of immersing the winch when launching or recovering. Having the winch facing up would allow the most debris and water to fall into the winch.
Doesn't the straight aft pull exert the most leverage on the base of the winch post?
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'82 Super Cat 15
Hull #315
Virginia
Previously owned: '70 H14, '79 H16, '68 Sailmaster 26, '85 H14T
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