the front crossbar has a channel that fits under the lip with a hex bolt thru the crossbar. Can I remove the dolphin striker nut and wing support nut to access the inside of the crossbar and adjust the casting so i can square up the casting with the hole in the lip and crossbar. Any suggestions on method would be appreciated. Just bought this H18 and found the stainless channel and hex bolt parts in a box. I'm hoping the casting is still in the crossbar somewhere.
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Earl-If you're not living on the edge, you're taking up too much room.
Hobie18
Sailbird Tri
ODay Daysailer II
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Hobie 18 crossbar support casting
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Posted: May 13, 2017 - 01:36 PM
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Posted: May 13, 2017 - 02:17 PM
The end caps are held on by the dolphin striker nuts. Most likely they are stuck on there pretty good and take some nice oil and banging with a mallet to remove. Not sure exactly what you are asking with the whole square up the casting with the hole thing. The inner hull bolt should be an allen bolt that threads into an insert with a helicoil in it thats riveted in place. The outer bolt is just a hex bolt and nut through the lip. If the holes don't line up then just loosen the inner and outer hull bolts and move the whole beam so you can get the bolt in. You don't need to adjust the end caps as long as they are all the way on...
If you use an extension the dolphin striker shouldn't be in the way and for sure you don't remove it to mess with the beam bolts. -
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Posted: May 13, 2017 - 10:36 PM
It's also not clear to me what you are trying to "square up." Can you provide some more explanation?
The anchor bolt holes for the crossbars are more or less in a fixed position and can not be changed. The outboard bolt hole location is set by the corner casting fit into the end if the crossbar. The inboard bolt hole location is set by the casting which is riveted inside the crossbar and the hole drilled in the extrusion itself. None of this can really be changed.
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Posted: May 13, 2017 - 10:49 PM
thanks, exactly what I was looking for. I didn't want to go too far with removing parts unnecessarily. So if I loosen the dolphin striker, then the outside bolt, I should be able to line up the under lip stainless steel channel piece, hex bolt and the threads inside the crossbar. Yes? I'll do it tomorrow! BTW , I love sailing out of Dunedin Causway to spoil islands and down to Clearwater pass. See you soon.
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Hobie18
Sailbird Tri
ODay Daysailer II
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Posted: May 13, 2017 - 11:00 PM
the boat was missing the outer hex bolt and under lip channel. I found both in a box of spare parts. I put the channel under the lip and started pushing the hex bolt through the lip and into what i assumed was and casting inside the crossbar. I didnt see the rivets at first, but I now understand they are holding the casting in place inside the crossbar. Problem is the threads of the hex bolt never seem to bite inside the crossbar. I'm afraid there may be a bolt broken off inside the casting. I can probably use the bolt extractor drill bits.
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Hobie18
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Posted: May 14, 2017 - 08:29 AM
Something in your explanation is mixed up. You are saying you are trying to thread the OUTER bolts into the casting, but that's impossible. The outer connections are thru-bolted with a bolt that drops down through the hole in the casting and a nut which is held inside the stainless channel under the hull flange.
The INBOARD bolts are different. The bolt is inserted into the stainless steel channel under the hull flange and passed up into a threaded casting which is riveted inside the ctossbar.
It sounds like your inboard casting may be stripped. This can happen if you aren't careful when assembling the boat. You need to carefully get all of the inboard bolts (forward and aft crossbars) lined up and started in the castings. Then do the outside bolts and finally tighten everything down. If your inboard casting is stripped, then you are correct that you need to disassemble the dolphin striker and remove the outside casting to gain access inside the crossbar. This can be extremely difficult to do if there is corrosion between the dolphin striker rod and the casting- it will seize.
First thing I would do would be to entirely remove the crossbar from the boat and inspect/clean the threads on both inboard castings and determine if they are in fact stripped. You would need to remove the crossbar from the boat anyway if it turns out that you have to repair the inboard castings.
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Posted: May 14, 2017 - 12:25 PM
When replacing the hulls on my boat, one of the inner bolts for the rear crossbar was seized and I tried every trick in the book to get it out. I ended up drilling the head off to remove the crossbar, then sheared off what was left with vice grips so I could remove the casting.
Getting the casting out was one of the more challenging tasks I've ever done with the boat. I ended up putting significant amounts of penetrating oil into the area, then took a thick iron strap and bent a hook on it that I could slide inside and hook the casting. On the other side of the strap I made a 90 deg bend that I could bang on with a hammer. One issue with this is you can only pull the casting from one side. So between hard hits, I took a rod and lightly tapped the casting in the other direction to straighten it for the next "extraction hit".
If memory serves, it took about 30 minutes and a good degree of profanity to remove it.
If you are going to do this, make sure it is necessary.
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Bill Mattson
Prindle 19 "Gelli Bean"
Prindle 19 "Cat's Pajamas"
Nacra 5.2 (Will sail her a bit and let her name herself)
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Posted: May 15, 2017 - 10:13 AM
So i removed the INBOARD hex bolt from the other hull. I found that the bolt from the parts box I was trying to thread up into the casting was an inch and a half too short. HA! I'm pretty sure that the former owner twisted the seized bolt until it broke off because I cant see any thread on that side and the thread is clear on the other side. I'm gonna hose it down with WD40, then drill it out and use the bolt extractor. Hopefully, I won't have to go to Mattson's solution.
Edited by faceplant09 on May 15, 2017 - 11:19 AM.
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Hobie18
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Posted: May 15, 2017 - 11:27 AM
Good luck. I had one break off and seize before and I had to take the casting out and give it to a machinist to extract the bolt.
Whatever you do, be sure to use anti-seize grease on the threads the next time you put the boat together. Stainless steel threads on stainless steel threads will gall and seize if not lubricated.
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Posted: May 15, 2017 - 11:32 AM
I am really impressed with Tef-gel -
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Posted: May 15, 2017 - 12:21 PM
Tef-gel is an anti-corrosion paste. It is good for situations where there is risk of galvanic corrosion due to dissimilar metals in contact (such as stainless steel rivets in aluminum extrusions). It is very good for those applications.
The H18 crossbar bolts don't seize due to corrosion, they are stainless on stainless (where the threads engage). They seize due to galling (essentially microscopic "globs" of stainless steel are sheared off under high pressure and clog up the threads). In this case, you want to use an anti-seize grease which is intended to lubricate the threads and prevent galling. These lubricants are readily available at auto parts stores.
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Posted: May 15, 2017 - 06:48 PM
Were you able to solve your problem?
I'm missing somethings in the description. Are we talking front crossbar inside bolts?
Some early boats had hex head bolts most later production had Allen head bolts. There are also two lengths of Allen Head bolts used for this application depending on the year of the boat. Also you do not have to remove the dolphin striker to remove the front crossbar, it does not go through the hull, Just the 2 inner and two outer bolts.
You might also find a used crossbar in good shape is cheaper than the other options discussed above. I'm in the San Francisco area and sell them for $150. front or rear. -
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Posted: May 16, 2017 - 12:12 AM
I researched removing seized stainless bolts from aluminum and no method worked in my case. One method some guy had used on boats with success numerous times was heating the bolt with a torch and cooling it for a couple of cycles, then applying Moly Dee tapping fluid after it was cool. No go. At one point, I made a circular dam of silicone sealant to hold a pool of penetrating oil, and left it there for a week. Then I went for broke with vice grips and sheared the bolt right at the casting.
Ended up pulling the old one and replacing with one of these:
https://www.murrays.com/product/50-61040001/
Edited to add: This is the REAR crossbar part for my repair. I didn't see a front casting on the site at first glance, but they probably carry it.
Edited by mattson on May 16, 2017 - 12:14 AM.
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Bill Mattson
Prindle 19 "Gelli Bean"
Prindle 19 "Cat's Pajamas"
Nacra 5.2 (Will sail her a bit and let her name herself)
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Posted: May 16, 2017 - 12:31 PM
FYI, it is a stainless bolt in a stainless insert, not aluminum. The inboard casting is aluminum, but there is a stainless steel threaded insert that is pressed into the casting. Again, the bolts need to be lubricated with anti-seize grease to prevent galling and seizing which can occur with stainless on stainless threads.
Maybe they do, maybe they don't. These parts went out of production many years ago. Once the existing stock is depleted, it's all gone. If you end up damaging the casting/insert while removing the bolt, it could most likely be repaired by installing a helicoil to fix the threads.
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Posted: May 20, 2017 - 08:53 AM
>removing the crossbar today, so i can work on the broken inboard bolt.
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Hobie18
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Posted: May 20, 2017 - 11:13 AM
If you order a new bolt make sure you call and have them measure to make sure there is 2" of thread. Pull out a good bolt and measure the bolt length and have them verify that too. I went back and fourth with hobie last year about this. They changed their supply of crossbar bolts and they don't have enough thread on them so they can't screw in all the way and stop about an 1/8-1/4" short.
Murrays had one front bolt left that had enough thread. Every other online place I could find had only 1.5" of thread. Ironically on the underside of almost every H18 crossbar is a sticker saying you must have a bolt with 2" of thread lol.
Hobie is aware of the problem but whether they got all the bolts replaced is another thing. -
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Posted: May 20, 2017 - 11:15 PM
thanks Matt, ill check the thread depth! I got the crossbar off, tramp and dolphin still attached, then drilled out the broken bolt, applied the bolt extractor and lots of liquid wrench. It came out! Sonehow i missplaced my channel and lock washer, but im on my way again.
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Earl-If you're not living on the edge, you're taking up too much room.
Hobie18
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Posted: May 21, 2017 - 07:02 AM
The channels on the front crossbar were upgraded in the mid-80's to "anchor plates" which thru-bolt the hull with four 1/4"-20 screws to strengthen the crossbar connection. Depending on what vintage H18 you own, you may want to consider this upgrade. Now would be a good time to do it since you have the crossbar off anyway.
And I'll take this opportunity to once again remind to lubricate the crossbar bolts with anti-seize before re-assembling!
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Posted: Jun 05, 2017 - 11:14 AM
the broken bolt was removed with a bolt extractor drill after soaking overnight in LiquidWrench. I removed the tramp and flipped the crossbar upsidedown. I threaded the bolt all the way through the casting to make sure it was good. Flipped the crossbar back down and lined up the inside bolts. Lifting the crossbar for an inch of gap between the crossbar and the hull, I made sure I had a good start on the thread. I did the same on the other side. I added the outer bolts , but just started them. I snugged the inner bolt to make sure there was no play, then i snugged the outer bolt. I think my problem with lining up the inside bolts with the inner casting nut was that the tramp was keeping me just out of alignment and kept crossthreading the bolt. Once the tramp was removed it was easier to have a buddy help me square up the thread start.
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Earl-If you're not living on the edge, you're taking up too much room.
Hobie18
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Posted: Jun 05, 2017 - 12:19 PM
Good to hear you got it fixed.
Yes, definitely remove the tramp before assembling. If you can put the hulls on the trailer and strap them down so they are roughly held at the correct spacing, it helps a lot too. Also having a long hex bit socket and a long extension that you can drive with a ratchet wrench makes these bolts much easier to install. Trying to install the bolts a 1/2 turn at a time with a standard allen wrench is agonizing.
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