1.) I understand you are talking about achieving maximum speed and handling. I was not (and neither was the other guy). I was taking issue with your suggestion that the front tramp cannot be used for people safely.Ive done it alot without incident.
2.) I agree that you can't sail a boat with all the weight in the front and little weight in the back.
3.) The reason I made reference to the promotional material was that the front tramp was clearly intended to provide extra space for sailing families (which you picked up on).
Edited by jsb4g on Jun 29, 2017 - 04:50 PM.
Considering a beach cat...
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Posted: Jun 28, 2017 - 06:31 PM
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Posted: Jun 28, 2017 - 06:32 PM
I am not able to make a commitment like that: how long do pebbles live? -
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Posted: Jun 28, 2017 - 06:34 PM
that's still to close for me, i would need a longer stick ! :) -
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Posted: Jun 28, 2017 - 06:50 PM
I appreciate your offer, by all means, come on over and have a sail/rum with us in dunedin (or soda)
I will fight the urge to respond to all your points, i am certain you all got where i was going with them but i do want to make 1 point clear: I didn't mention speed. my comments are not about sailing faster or "better" - but were 100% about handling and safety, and in big air a lack of handling is unsafe
I am very happy to hear that you enjoy sailing your g-cat, esp with family and kids! -
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Posted: Jun 28, 2017 - 07:56 PM
I guess your safety point is where people could be misled. You should qualify that by defining exactly when it is unsafe or less safe. 10+ knots, 15+ knots, 20+ knots? I do 15 knots all the time with people on front tramp. No big deal. I have no handling problems. I am not interested in sailing 20+ knots. -
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Posted: Jun 28, 2017 - 09:24 PM
i stand by my original thesis: having anything more than a few pounds in front of your beam is not optimal for sailing performance
the only exception is if you are a skilled skipper and know weight placement well... in a very light air reach, deep downwind or in shallows and working hard to keep those long rudders out of shallows, sitting in the right spot in front of the beam can be a very good tactic in a race, but a terrible idea in med - heavy air - ymmv
Edited by MN3 on Jun 28, 2017 - 10:11 PM. -
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Posted: Jun 29, 2017 - 03:30 AM
You may be right, the bows on this Getaway do look a little low.
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Posted: Jun 29, 2017 - 07:21 AM
they are obviously on the cusp of: capsize, pitchpole or implosion from it too! -
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Posted: Jun 29, 2017 - 02:29 PM
With regard to optimum weight distribution, there is no one size fit all. It depends on conditions, angle, etc... It is true that you never want the bulk of the weight up front, but it is also true, in certain conditions, that too much weight at the back of the boat is not "optimal" (your term) either. Do a search for backward or reverse pitchpole.
Edited by jsb4g on Jun 30, 2017 - 10:57 AM. -
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Posted: Jun 29, 2017 - 03:17 PM
I respectfully disagree -
I have edited to make my points clearer and try to take emotion out of it - i haven't changed my toughts on any of my points
But i see you are quoting me - sure i would be happy to amend that statement:
MN3: "note about the front tramp - they are great for holding lunch and light gear but are not really appropriate for people in most conditions (new)besides putting a few munchkins up front and sailing slow in very light conditions, or trying to capsize"(/new)
All due respect, i disagree -
say your putting around with 4 people on your boat, at 8 knots and get a unforeseen (or seen but mishandled) gust of 50% (to 12 knot), if you have a few teenagers on the front tramp - your may find your boat stuffing its bows (which wouldn't have stuffed w/out 2 monkeys up there). Also made worse by your rudders not having the usual amount of "bite" nor response due to the CE being moved forward, (also possibly causeing wetherhelm that you don't normaly have, so if you drop the helm you may unexpectedly swerve) throwing crew into sail/forestay/pond - which would have otherwise been a 100% controllable puff without risk of stuffing your bows, or would have been much controllable and easier to recover from
I know that's a lot of "what if" - but i see them happen all the time (sans the people sailing with weight on their front tramp)
You mentioned sometimes raising your jib to accommodate crew is fine in light air - as you said previously - it effects the boat in a puff - yup it adds power to your cat by raising the sail - in less controllable way - just another reason why people up there isn't optimal imho
THIS IS PURE OPINION: please don't take it personally
Also having little kids (not sure how little is too little), or even small or big teens, or adults up there, with no hiking straps for feet to secure to the boat, and (in the case of kids) no adults around to grab a kid who may make a bad movement at the wrong time .... are also not the safest moves in my opinion..
- i've sailed with kids on my boat and i've crewed on many types of boats that had kids on them. Every time i felt the same (and it is proven true time and time again for me) - kids better be very well behaved and listen well - cause there are a couple dozen ways to get hurt on sailboat - i have dropped little kids (and their mothers) off after 15 minutes on my boat cause the kid wouldn't sit or listen - i am not suggesting your kids are not well behaved - i have no idea -
and disagree with telling anyone "there is no safety issue" - again, jib sheets and flying clew-plates at every tack and gybe, the occasional mis-cleated sheet and your jib can be flogging the heck out of bodies up there.
You can mitigate some issues, but IMHO your statement that there are "no safety concerns" is not correct and should not be disseminated
Know the risks .. then do as you feel is within your skill set and pain threshold, but don't pretend there aren't risks (yes i know, walking, driving, airplanes, volcanoes, aliens.. All risks - -
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Posted: Jun 29, 2017 - 03:20 PM
Good racers and knowledgeable sailors (trying to be fast and efficient ) move weight around the tramp and place it in the right spot for each condition
It is one of the skills used by winning racers and efficient sailors utilize.
Edited by MN3 on Jun 29, 2017 - 03:48 PM. -
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Posted: Jun 29, 2017 - 04:45 PM
I have hundreds of hours with people on the front tramp without incident to back up my assertion concerning safety. I also question the honesty of several of your claims, and I happen to know for a fact that you have been dishonest about one of them.
Edited by jsb4g on Jun 30, 2017 - 10:58 AM. -
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Posted: Jun 29, 2017 - 04:48 PM
cool - enjoy!
btw - i can't think of anything i could have said dishonestly, and i am a pretty honest person, so feel free to call it out - i'm curious
Edited by MN3 on Jun 29, 2017 - 04:59 PM. -
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Posted: Jun 30, 2017 - 12:19 AM
Wow, i am sorry for starting this! While there is something to learn here I still believe the risks are minimal, much more so than other water activities people partake in on a regular basis. I teach safety for a living and have for a long time. I take more precautions with my family than most and I pride myself on my knowledge and the education I provide to both children and adults. While I am an adventurous person and love a good bit of adrenaline I never approach any adventure haphazardly, actually quite the opposite. I have done things far more dangerous than cat sailing, some of it rescuing people that do not take such precautions. As far as my children, they learned to swim very young, my older daughter is an active lifeguard, my younger daughter can probably tread water side by side with the best swimmers around. No one goes out on my boats without safety devices, being educated and following rules. While I don't consider myself a great swimmer I have been boating well over 30 years, paddled class 5 rapids around the country, and additionally am a certified advanced EMT.
I do believe MN3 makes some very good points and maybe I should not argue the point, as many likely will not take the precautions or the time to educate themselves on both the boat handling skills and life safety skills. For me, I quickly understood how this boat handles, the balance point for optimal safety (not performance) and the limitations of the design through mechanics. Utilizing these learned points I will say that there certainly can be a minimal range between safe amd suddenly in trouble, but that is over certain wind speeds only.
Be safe out there! -
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Posted: Jun 30, 2017 - 07:24 AM
Don't be sorry - I'm not
I am always up for a good debate - helps to correct or reinforce my knowledge and knowledge and critical thinking for others.
I am curious why he would think i would lie about any of these things, i have nothing to gain by from it so i look forward to him explaining his accusations - either way doesn't really matter to me if he believes me or not ...
Hope you got something out of this discussion -
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Posted: Jun 30, 2017 - 07:31 AM
I dont want to get into more back and forth with you, so I will leave it at this: in 4,403 posts (as of now), there is a lot of material from which to find inconsistent statements you have made.
Edited by jsb4g on Jun 30, 2017 - 10:59 AM. -
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Posted: Jun 30, 2017 - 08:59 AM
You call me out and say i lie but you wont back that up = laughable
you looked through my 4400 posts and founds some "inconsistencies" ? = ridiculous
of course my opinions and methods have changed in my 40 years of sailing and 19 years of owning beach cats
i again challenge you to point out where i have been "caught" by you in a lie
Edited by MN3 on Jun 30, 2017 - 09:07 AM. -
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Posted: Jun 30, 2017 - 10:17 AM
Don't like the word "inconsistencies"? Ok, I will be more blunt: Going through a few of your posts over the last few years, I was quickly able to determine you made up facts to support your argument in this thread. Oh, and I never said looked through 4400 posts....I guess that is just something else you made up to make yourself appear more reasonable and make me appear less reasonable.
Edited by jsb4g on Jun 30, 2017 - 10:59 AM. -
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Posted: Jun 30, 2017 - 10:20 AM
" in 4,403 posts (as of now), there is a lot of material from which to find inconsistent "
Prove it smart guy
you have challenged everything i said, suggested i had never sailed a g-cat, tried to tell me i have waffled on my statements, and now call me a lair without the balls to back it up ...
carry on
Edited by MN3 on Jun 30, 2017 - 10:26 AM. -
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Posted: Jun 30, 2017 - 10:35 AM
No need for me to try and make you look the fool - your doing it to yourself with every word
esp the bad advice you have stated - "Bottom line is that in 15 knots or less, there is no safety issue with having kids (not teenagers) on front tramp" and "I meant to say that too much weight at the very back of the boat is not "optimal" in all conditions."
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