Considering a beach cat... :: Catamaran Sailboats at TheBeachcats.com

Welcome anonymous guest

Please Support
TheBeachcats.com

Considering a beach cat...

Go to page [-1] 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 [+1]:

jsb4g

Rank: Lubber

Registered: Oct 11, 2016

Last visit: Jun 19, 2018

Posts: 42
Posted: Jun 28, 2017 - 06:31 PM

1.) I understand you are talking about achieving maximum speed and handling. I was not (and neither was the other guy). I was taking issue with your suggestion that the front tramp cannot be used for people safely.Ive done it alot without incident.
2.) I agree that you can't sail a boat with all the weight in the front and little weight in the back.
3.) The reason I made reference to the promotional material was that the front tramp was clearly intended to provide extra space for sailing families (which you picked up on).

Edited by jsb4g on Jun 29, 2017 - 04:50 PM.
MN3

Rank: Master Chief

Registered: Jun 20, 2006

Last visit: Dec 04, 2024

Posts: 7090
Posted: Jun 28, 2017 - 06:32 PM

QuoteI would like to add that Pet Rocks live forever by the way.

I am not able to make a commitment like that: how long do pebbles live?
MN3

Rank: Master Chief

Registered: Jun 20, 2006

Last visit: Dec 04, 2024

Posts: 7090
Posted: Jun 28, 2017 - 06:34 PM

QuoteI figured out what you do with the kids. You just have to add some long boards to your cat.

that's still to close for me, i would need a longer stick ! :)
MN3

Rank: Master Chief

Registered: Jun 20, 2006

Last visit: Dec 04, 2024

Posts: 7090
Posted: Jun 28, 2017 - 06:50 PM

I appreciate your offer, by all means, come on over and have a sail/rum with us in dunedin (or soda)

I will fight the urge to respond to all your points, i am certain you all got where i was going with them but i do want to make 1 point clear: I didn't mention speed. my comments are not about sailing faster or "better" - but were 100% about handling and safety, and in big air a lack of handling is unsafe

I am very happy to hear that you enjoy sailing your g-cat, esp with family and kids!
jsb4g

Rank: Lubber

Registered: Oct 11, 2016

Last visit: Jun 19, 2018

Posts: 42
Posted: Jun 28, 2017 - 07:56 PM

I guess your safety point is where people could be misled. You should qualify that by defining exactly when it is unsafe or less safe. 10+ knots, 15+ knots, 20+ knots? I do 15 knots all the time with people on front tramp. No big deal. I have no handling problems. I am not interested in sailing 20+ knots.
MN3

Rank: Master Chief

Registered: Jun 20, 2006

Last visit: Dec 04, 2024

Posts: 7090
Posted: Jun 28, 2017 - 09:24 PM

i stand by my original thesis: having anything more than a few pounds in front of your beam is not optimal for sailing performance

the only exception is if you are a skilled skipper and know weight placement well... in a very light air reach, deep downwind or in shallows and working hard to keep those long rudders out of shallows, sitting in the right spot in front of the beam can be a very good tactic in a race, but a terrible idea in med - heavy air - ymmv

Edited by MN3 on Jun 28, 2017 - 10:11 PM.
DamonLinkous

Rank: Administrator

Registered: Jul 19, 2001

Last visit: Nov 15, 2024

Posts: 3446
Posted: Jun 29, 2017 - 03:30 AM

MN3i stand by my original thesis: having anything more than a few pounds in front of your beam is not optimal for sailing performance

You may be right, the bows on this Getaway do look a little low.

--
Damon Linkous
1992 Hobie 18
Memphis, TN

How To Create Your Signature

How To Create Your Own Cool Avatar

How To Display Pictures In The Forums.
--
MN3

Rank: Master Chief

Registered: Jun 20, 2006

Last visit: Dec 04, 2024

Posts: 7090
Posted: Jun 29, 2017 - 07:21 AM

QuoteYou may be right, the bows on this Getaway do look a little low.

they are obviously on the cusp of: capsize, pitchpole or implosion from it too!
jsb4g

Rank: Lubber

Registered: Oct 11, 2016

Last visit: Jun 19, 2018

Posts: 42
Posted: Jun 29, 2017 - 02:29 PM

With regard to optimum weight distribution, there is no one size fit all. It depends on conditions, angle, etc... It is true that you never want the bulk of the weight up front, but it is also true, in certain conditions, that too much weight at the back of the boat is not "optimal" (your term) either. Do a search for backward or reverse pitchpole.

Edited by jsb4g on Jun 30, 2017 - 10:57 AM.
MN3

Rank: Master Chief

Registered: Jun 20, 2006

Last visit: Dec 04, 2024

Posts: 7090
Posted: Jun 29, 2017 - 03:17 PM

QuotePrior to my reference to reverse pitch poles, I meant to say that too much weight at the very back of the boat is not "optimal" in all conditions.

I respectfully disagree -

Quotebacked off some of your original thoughts on that by using the edit feature

I have edited to make my points clearer and try to take emotion out of it - i haven't changed my toughts on any of my points

But i see you are quoting me - sure i would be happy to amend that statement:
MN3: "note about the front tramp - they are great for holding lunch and light gear but are not really appropriate for people in most conditions (new)besides putting a few munchkins up front and sailing slow in very light conditions, or trying to capsize"(/new)

Quote Bottom line is that in 15 knots or less, there is no safety issue with having kids (not teenagers) on front tramp if the person in charge of the boat knows what he or she is doing and doesn't overload the front with more weight

All due respect, i disagree -
say your putting around with 4 people on your boat, at 8 knots and get a unforeseen (or seen but mishandled) gust of 50% (to 12 knot), if you have a few teenagers on the front tramp - your may find your boat stuffing its bows (which wouldn't have stuffed w/out 2 monkeys up there). Also made worse by your rudders not having the usual amount of "bite" nor response due to the CE being moved forward, (also possibly causeing wetherhelm that you don't normaly have, so if you drop the helm you may unexpectedly swerve) throwing crew into sail/forestay/pond - which would have otherwise been a 100% controllable puff without risk of stuffing your bows, or would have been much controllable and easier to recover from

I know that's a lot of "what if" - but i see them happen all the time (sans the people sailing with weight on their front tramp)
You mentioned sometimes raising your jib to accommodate crew is fine in light air - as you said previously - it effects the boat in a puff - yup it adds power to your cat by raising the sail - in less controllable way - just another reason why people up there isn't optimal imho

THIS IS PURE OPINION: please don't take it personally
Also having little kids (not sure how little is too little), or even small or big teens, or adults up there, with no hiking straps for feet to secure to the boat, and (in the case of kids) no adults around to grab a kid who may make a bad movement at the wrong time .... are also not the safest moves in my opinion..

- i've sailed with kids on my boat and i've crewed on many types of boats that had kids on them. Every time i felt the same (and it is proven true time and time again for me) - kids better be very well behaved and listen well - cause there are a couple dozen ways to get hurt on sailboat - i have dropped little kids (and their mothers) off after 15 minutes on my boat cause the kid wouldn't sit or listen - i am not suggesting your kids are not well behaved - i have no idea -

and disagree with telling anyone "there is no safety issue" - again, jib sheets and flying clew-plates at every tack and gybe, the occasional mis-cleated sheet and your jib can be flogging the heck out of bodies up there.

You can mitigate some issues, but IMHO your statement that there are "no safety concerns" is not correct and should not be disseminated

Know the risks .. then do as you feel is within your skill set and pain threshold, but don't pretend there aren't risks (yes i know, walking, driving, airplanes, volcanoes, aliens.. All risks -
MN3

Rank: Master Chief

Registered: Jun 20, 2006

Last visit: Dec 04, 2024

Posts: 7090
Posted: Jun 29, 2017 - 03:20 PM

QuoteWith regard to optimum weight distribution, there is no one size fit all. It depends on conditions, angle, etc.

Good racers and knowledgeable sailors (trying to be fast and efficient ) move weight around the tramp and place it in the right spot for each condition

It is one of the skills used by winning racers and efficient sailors utilize.

Edited by MN3 on Jun 29, 2017 - 03:48 PM.
jsb4g

Rank: Lubber

Registered: Oct 11, 2016

Last visit: Jun 19, 2018

Posts: 42
Posted: Jun 29, 2017 - 04:45 PM

I have hundreds of hours with people on the front tramp without incident to back up my assertion concerning safety. I also question the honesty of several of your claims, and I happen to know for a fact that you have been dishonest about one of them.

Edited by jsb4g on Jun 30, 2017 - 10:58 AM.
MN3

Rank: Master Chief

Registered: Jun 20, 2006

Last visit: Dec 04, 2024

Posts: 7090
Posted: Jun 29, 2017 - 04:48 PM

QuoteI have hundreds of hours with people on the front tramp without incident to back up my assertion concerning safety. I also question the honest of several of your claims, and I happen to know for a fact that you have been dishonest about one of them.

cool - enjoy!

btw - i can't think of anything i could have said dishonestly, and i am a pretty honest person, so feel free to call it out - i'm curious

Edited by MN3 on Jun 29, 2017 - 04:59 PM.
woofman

Rank: Lubber

Registered: Jul 20, 2016

Last visit: Aug 06, 2017

Posts: 22
Posted: Jun 30, 2017 - 12:19 AM

Wow, i am sorry for starting this! While there is something to learn here I still believe the risks are minimal, much more so than other water activities people partake in on a regular basis. I teach safety for a living and have for a long time. I take more precautions with my family than most and I pride myself on my knowledge and the education I provide to both children and adults. While I am an adventurous person and love a good bit of adrenaline I never approach any adventure haphazardly, actually quite the opposite. I have done things far more dangerous than cat sailing, some of it rescuing people that do not take such precautions. As far as my children, they learned to swim very young, my older daughter is an active lifeguard, my younger daughter can probably tread water side by side with the best swimmers around. No one goes out on my boats without safety devices, being educated and following rules. While I don't consider myself a great swimmer I have been boating well over 30 years, paddled class 5 rapids around the country, and additionally am a certified advanced EMT.
I do believe MN3 makes some very good points and maybe I should not argue the point, as many likely will not take the precautions or the time to educate themselves on both the boat handling skills and life safety skills. For me, I quickly understood how this boat handles, the balance point for optimal safety (not performance) and the limitations of the design through mechanics. Utilizing these learned points I will say that there certainly can be a minimal range between safe amd suddenly in trouble, but that is over certain wind speeds only.
Be safe out there!
MN3

Rank: Master Chief

Registered: Jun 20, 2006

Last visit: Dec 04, 2024

Posts: 7090
Posted: Jun 30, 2017 - 07:24 AM

QuoteWow, i am sorry for starting this!

Don't be sorry - I'm not

I am always up for a good debate - helps to correct or reinforce my knowledge and knowledge and critical thinking for others.

I am curious why he would think i would lie about any of these things, i have nothing to gain by from it so i look forward to him explaining his accusations - either way doesn't really matter to me if he believes me or not ...

Hope you got something out of this discussion
jsb4g

Rank: Lubber

Registered: Oct 11, 2016

Last visit: Jun 19, 2018

Posts: 42
Posted: Jun 30, 2017 - 07:31 AM

I dont want to get into more back and forth with you, so I will leave it at this: in 4,403 posts (as of now), there is a lot of material from which to find inconsistent statements you have made.

Edited by jsb4g on Jun 30, 2017 - 10:59 AM.
MN3

Rank: Master Chief

Registered: Jun 20, 2006

Last visit: Dec 04, 2024

Posts: 7090
Posted: Jun 30, 2017 - 08:59 AM

QuoteI dont want to get into more back and forth with you, so I will leave it at this: in 4,403 posts (as of now), there is a lot of material from which to find inconsistent statements you have made. I found another one when looking through them last night.

I also question the honest of several of your claims, and I happen to know for a fact that you have been dishonest about one of them.

You call me out and say i lie but you wont back that up = laughable

you looked through my 4400 posts and founds some "inconsistencies" ? = ridiculous
of course my opinions and methods have changed in my 40 years of sailing and 19 years of owning beach cats

i again challenge you to point out where i have been "caught" by you in a lie

Edited by MN3 on Jun 30, 2017 - 09:07 AM.
jsb4g

Rank: Lubber

Registered: Oct 11, 2016

Last visit: Jun 19, 2018

Posts: 42
Posted: Jun 30, 2017 - 10:17 AM

Don't like the word "inconsistencies"? Ok, I will be more blunt: Going through a few of your posts over the last few years, I was quickly able to determine you made up facts to support your argument in this thread. Oh, and I never said looked through 4400 posts....I guess that is just something else you made up to make yourself appear more reasonable and make me appear less reasonable.

Edited by jsb4g on Jun 30, 2017 - 10:59 AM.
MN3

Rank: Master Chief

Registered: Jun 20, 2006

Last visit: Dec 04, 2024

Posts: 7090
Posted: Jun 30, 2017 - 10:20 AM

Quoteh, and I never said looked through 4400 posts....

" in 4,403 posts (as of now), there is a lot of material from which to find inconsistent "

QuoteI was quickly able to determine you made up facts to support your argument in this thread.

Prove it smart guy

you have challenged everything i said, suggested i had never sailed a g-cat, tried to tell me i have waffled on my statements, and now call me a lair without the balls to back it up ...

carry on

Edited by MN3 on Jun 30, 2017 - 10:26 AM.
MN3

Rank: Master Chief

Registered: Jun 20, 2006

Last visit: Dec 04, 2024

Posts: 7090
Posted: Jun 30, 2017 - 10:35 AM

Quote.I guess that is just something else you made up to make yourself appear more reasonable and make me appear less reasonable.

No need for me to try and make you look the fool - your doing it to yourself with every word

esp the bad advice you have stated - "Bottom line is that in 15 knots or less, there is no safety issue with having kids (not teenagers) on front tramp" and "I meant to say that too much weight at the very back of the boat is not "optimal" in all conditions."