The Tornado leeward stay seems a bit loose while tacking. We run a pin head rig. Stay tension is not measured but as tight as it can be with one guy pulling the trap line when setting pins. I probably ought to re read reg whites book again, but the leeward stay seems pretty loose. Like maybe is has 3 inches of slack. It seems like more than it should be. Diamonds are snug. It's a new mast this year, so coukd it be that or bow flex on our cedar hulls? Hulls are in great shape. I am estimating the slack. It can be pulled several inches side to side easily
. All wires are new.
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John
Nacra 5.0
CT
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Leeward stay tension
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Posted: Jul 29, 2017 - 06:32 AM
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Posted: Jul 29, 2017 - 07:45 AM
That is perfectly normal
Think about for a minute -
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Posted: Jul 29, 2017 - 11:58 AM
The H16 did the same. I was just checking.
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John
Nacra 5.0
CT
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Posted: Jul 29, 2017 - 01:12 PM
Is it different than the old wires?
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Tim
Collierville (Memphis), TN
Supercat 15--sold :(
Hobie monocat--given
Vanguard 15--traded for...
Nacra 4.5--sold
Nacra 5.7
Hobie 14–sold to make room for...
Supercat 17–sold
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Posted: Jul 29, 2017 - 03:29 PM
Your setting process is sound.
The lee stay will always be loose under sail, and will be tighter on shore under no load.
New shrouds stretch, so check the pin placement often.
Are you sure your diamonds are supposed to be snug? Are you inducing pre-bend in your mast? Some rigs call for slack in the diamonds to allow the mast to bend under load, flattening out the sail.
Seek advice from Tornado sailors here and elsewhere.
Pbegel has sailed and sold Tornadoes for years. PM him from this site.
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Bob
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Prindle 18-2 #244 "Wakizashi"
Prindle 16 #3690 "Pegasus" Sold (sigh)
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Posted: Jul 29, 2017 - 05:22 PM
Even with spreaders/diamond wires, as soon as the rig is powered up, the mast will bend. When the mast bends, the distance between the mast tang and the mast base decreases, so the mast effectively gets shorter and the leeward shroud slackens. Totally normal.
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Posted: Jul 30, 2017 - 12:16 AM
Thanks guys. With the speed of the Tornado, we can get far from our beach in a jiffy. Getting more inclined to check and recheck.
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John
Nacra 5.0
CT
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Posted: Jul 30, 2017 - 12:29 AM
CTCAT, As you've been told, it's very normal.
Unless it's flying around "disconnected"
. This happens, so yes, "check/recheck" your shrouds every sail to make sure the pins and cotter rings are not walking themselves loose. The quick rings can back themselves out or deform much easier than normal ringdings.
Before sailing last week, I asked my "safety officer" to inspect the rigging, and he found the cotter ring MISSING from the forestay link at the furling drum. WTH it went I do not know! A new one is taped in place now.
While we're on the subject, do you folks recommend a loose rig or tight rig on the P18 & P18-2 w/ original sails?
I read the articles, but I'd really like your opinions. Figure 15-25mph winds and manageable swell. One person trapping.
Edited by nohuhu on Jul 29, 2017 - 08:31 PM.
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Prindle 18
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Posted: Jul 31, 2017 - 12:37 PM
Ring dings disappear more than they should, and usually quietly. Having a Safety Officer is a great process. The ring dings on stays and jib blocks get caught on stuff, disfigure, then come off while sailing.
Checking again once you hit shore isn't a bad idea either.
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Bob
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Prindle 18-2 #244 "Wakizashi"
Prindle 16 #3690 "Pegasus" Sold (sigh)
AZ Multihull Fleet 42 member
(Way) Past Commodore of Prindle Fleet 14
Arizona, USA
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Posted: Jul 31, 2017 - 01:46 PM
ALL ring dings should be taped with self amalgamating (rigging) tape
this way they can't get snagged on clothing nor lines
also it's easy to check all critical attachments (stays/bridals/etc) as the white tape is very visible and you can verify the ring-ding hasn't been messed with (as could happen with mast up/ overnight at a public beach) -
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Posted: Jul 31, 2017 - 01:48 PM
as the saying goes - the harder she blows the tighter it goes (rigging in this case)
I have seen OLD TIME h18 guys sail crazy loose rigged in heavy air ... NO FREAKIN WAY
there may be some logic to it but i don't want my rig flopping around and testing every fitting with every gust
I made the guy move his boat away from mine - also his crew wouldn't sail w him till he tightened up -
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Posted: Jul 31, 2017 - 02:25 PM
Is this the same as the glueless repair tape? Found only in black.
Does rigging tape come in different colors? Right now I use yellow electrical tape, (up on the mast too, so I can locate shackles and such with binocs).
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Prindle 18
96734
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Posted: Jul 31, 2017 - 02:50 PM
no idea what glue-less repair tape is - so ... maybe?
google rigging tape
$10-$20 a roll
This tape typically has a removable layer and you stretch it 4 or 5:1 as you wrap it around itself it "melds" or amalgamates together into a waterproof wrap.
I tape every ring - bow tang, upper furler, jib blocks, anywhere a human or line can touch
I've only seen white and only recently black. I think white is better (and faster :) )
We can't use electrical tape down here on the face of the sun. it melts all over the place - every color and brand i have ever seen -
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Posted: Jul 31, 2017 - 02:53 PM
The jib downhaul runs past the forestay pin/ring on most boats I've seen, so sail twist and furling/unfurling may have done the trick on my boat. It's damn sobering to see your whole rig suspended by a "loose thread" like that.
When I was stepping the mast all the time, I had a similar experience with the side stays, where pulling a snug chafe cover up and down over the shrouds (just once) was enough to deform the medium-sized quick rings and straighten them, so that they were ready to come out.
As the saying goes - "What goes up,..."
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Prindle 18
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Posted: Jul 31, 2017 - 03:05 PM
I am not following you with the jib downhaul and furling with the loss of a pin?
(i assume you really mean the jib forestay, since on most (older) beachcat's there is no adjustable jib downhaul)
If your forestay is snug, and your jib halyard is snug, and the rest of the halyard excess (after raising the jib) is removed via sister clip, or somehow securely stowed- you should be able to furl and unfurl till you burn up a bearing, or wear out your line, or till the cows come home- with out ever touching a ring-ding.
now your furling line can snag it, or if it's already deformed a little and has a little bit "showing" it can snag on a jib during raising, -
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Posted: Jul 31, 2017 - 03:30 PM
Thanks. That's the one. Self-fusing silicon tape (rescue tape brand is common). I see you can order it online in colors now.
Amazon here I come...
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Prindle 18
96734
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Posted: Jul 31, 2017 - 03:52 PM
i think rescue is a little different, but will work (i googled it)
It has no UV claim and rig tape does
also rig tape usually requires a dry area for application: that stuff claims to be emergency repair tape for leaky pipes, not sure that would work with regular rigging tape or not
If you are in a sunny location, UV degradation may be a real factor
Edited by MN3 on Jul 31, 2017 - 03:52 PM. -
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Posted: Jul 31, 2017 - 04:01 PM
Referring only to the downhaul. Sorry I don't have a personal picture handy. It's a Murrays furling kit.
The top of the furler is pinned directly to the forestay. No shackle, no adjusters. The downhaul line passes under the pin and goes back up to the sail jam cleat. Then it gets wrapped a couple times and secured.
As my sail twists around, while tacking or furling, the lines can rub this area and that may have been what worked the untaped ring loose.
Certainly, it was forgetfulness! Right?
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Prindle 18
96734
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Posted: Jul 31, 2017 - 04:31 PM
i see
yes: with that method of rigging - those ring-dings are in a prime spot to be messes with/snagged/fly away
I have a 2" ring (i think) above my furler. I secure my forestay to it and use it as a "base" to tie down my jib clew.
I really don't recall anyone rigging that way (jib through that furler pin)- might be worth a new thread and questions to the prindle-er's?
I personally prefer the "Portuguese turnbuckle method: a 3' or 4' shorter forestay with a thimble on the end, add 8' of line or so (enough for a feet of mast rake in either way and enough for 5 or 6 loops). You adjust forestay tension (and simultaneously set sidestay/shroud tension) and secure during stepping with a knot . mast rake is preset with the side stay adjusters.. only adjusted for extreme weather
the other typical furler setup i have used (for a beach cat) is the Hobie 18 style furler where a 7 or 9 pin "plate" is slid in and you pin it where you like (adjusting mast rake), then jump in a harness and hang off a trap line (or adjust your boat and pin your sail to leaward) to adjust rig tension to desired amount
both of those methods allow for somewhere to tie down the jib clew or loop a downhaul line (do you ever adjust this? - pretty hard on the fly)
Edited by MN3 on Jul 31, 2017 - 04:35 PM.
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