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Hobie 16 (3 formerly)
MacGregor 25 (formerly)
Chrysler Dagger 14 (formerly)
NACRA 5.0 (currently)
High Point, NC
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Nacra 5.0 Rudder Hold Down Line Jam
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Posted: Aug 06, 2017 - 10:43 AM
In racing the 5.0 I often tack my rudders (leeward rudder down, windward rudder up) particularly in light wind. I've had a number of instances where the rudder jammed in the up position and no matter how hard you pull on the line it wouldn't come down. What I found is that the down line is jamming between the rudder and the casting, actually pinching and wedging. Anyone got a fix for this?
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Hobie 16 (3 formerly)
MacGregor 25 (formerly)
Chrysler Dagger 14 (formerly)
NACRA 5.0 (currently)
High Point, NC
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Posted: Aug 06, 2017 - 02:04 PM
Add some glass to the top of the rudder so it fits the casting tighter. Maybe try using a thicker line or one that has a more solid core so it cant flatten and fit the gap as easily. -
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Posted: Aug 06, 2017 - 08:48 PM
And make sure you pull all the slack out before yanking it down all the way, that helped me with the exact problem
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Tim
Collierville (Memphis), TN
Supercat 15--sold :(
Hobie monocat--given
Vanguard 15--traded for...
Nacra 4.5--sold
Nacra 5.7
Hobie 14–sold to make room for...
Supercat 17–sold
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Posted: Aug 07, 2017 - 11:07 AM
I keep that line cleated, rudders horizontal, to avoid any slack until I'm ready to lower the rudders. I do it the same way every time, otherwise it's easy to forget -
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Posted: Aug 07, 2017 - 02:37 PM
Thanks to all those who responded above, all possible as a solution. I think this is the best one I've had yet from Nick Drapes on the FB Nacra 5.0 group:
https://www.facebook.com/groups/1090909267683321/
"Tie a knot in the rope so when the rudder is up the knot is just in front of the shackle at the top of the rudder pin. This will stop the rope going slack enough to get caught. Have had a similar problem on the 5.8."
I think he means the knot should engage with the strap/shackle on top of the pivmatic just as the rudder is in the full up position as this would not allow for any slack. Definitely worth a try.
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Hobie 16 (3 formerly)
MacGregor 25 (formerly)
Chrysler Dagger 14 (formerly)
NACRA 5.0 (currently)
High Point, NC
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Posted: Aug 07, 2017 - 05:22 PM
I liked it too -
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Posted: Aug 07, 2017 - 05:49 PM
I like the knot idea, and can imagine this working. The knot could be made large enough to not allow the line to slip between the rudder and the casting. Pictures would be great.
I have wrestled with this for a couple years now. It's really a problem launching though waves on Lake Michigan as the slack in the floating line just gets lined up in that gap and you're cooked. Can really get jammed in there - to the accompaniment of all known swear words.
With a fresh bungee you can get the rudder up all the way and cleat it - removing all slack. Works great until the bungee tires out and the rudder flops down. Slack is back. Also, people point out it is nice to have some steerage and not have the rudders fully up.
For a month now I have used a little prototype thing that is working well. Basically, used some heavy gauge insulated wire to form a loop maybe 12" behind the cleat - angled about 30 degrees off TDC. This takes out some slack and prevents the line from drooping down into the bad place. The wire loop is fastened with tape for now which has held up without problem. The loop starts as a U shape. Halfway up the straight pieces of the U it is bent at nearly 90 degrees. The loop is positioned over the line and the flat legs of the U are secured with a few wraps of tape. No need to undo the line. Again, a picture would explain this simple cure far better than this description. I'll try to post something.
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Mark Hirte
Nacra 5.0 1983 - (1st cat)
Deerfield, Il
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Posted: Aug 07, 2017 - 06:31 PM
You guys are way overthinking things. Your pull down lines are too long, shorten them and tie a stopper knot or knot and twig ball or stopper ball . This is nothing new. Here's another pick from PM's album. See the yellow boat. This pic is from 12 years ago.
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Ron
Nacra F18
Reservoir Sailing Assn.
Brandon, Mississippi
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Posted: Aug 07, 2017 - 08:01 PM
Agreed. This was answered in the first reply. Get rid of the Sta-Set. Larger high quality dyneema core line and tighten the rudder nut/bolt. This has been discussed in at least two dozen threads. I've provided detailed help with the Nacra system years ago. Search function is helpful.
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Philip
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Posted: Aug 07, 2017 - 09:34 PM
I replaced the pivmatics with the cl257 clam cleats. I like them much better
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Tim
Collierville (Memphis), TN
Supercat 15--sold :(
Hobie monocat--given
Vanguard 15--traded for...
Nacra 4.5--sold
Nacra 5.7
Hobie 14–sold to make room for...
Supercat 17–sold
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Posted: Aug 07, 2017 - 10:31 PM
This is interesting. I haven't ever had the problem of Nacdaddy, but I am having issues with the knot in the rudder itself binding in the casting. Way long ago I added shims to the sides of the rudders on the pivot pin made from clorox bottles (these are very large, about 3" in diameter), but the knots I tied the last time in the line I used must be bigger than what I had in the past. The problem wasn't horrible and I suspect as the knot wears it will become better, but maybe adding some more plastic shims would solve that problem even faster.
Looking at the first picture makes me wonder about the chicken or the egg conundrum. The sides of the rudder above the knot are clearly worn, or have been sanded or ?? There shouldn't be enough space for the line to be able to drop into that small gap between the rudder and the casting, even if the line is really slack. Is the bushing for the rudder pin itself worn out? If the rudder is wobbling around on the pin it may be opening up a gap large enough to let that line drop in. Or have the castings themselves been opened up way too much? In any case if the gap is fairly small between the casting and the rudder the correct size line cannot get pulled into the gap.
Or if the rudder is not centered in the casting and all of the gap is allowed to be on just one side, then maybe the line can get sucked in. So make some simple shims to center the rudder without having to overstress the casting to eliminate the gaps by over tightening them. But do make sure the castings are almost snug to the rudder.
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dg
NACRA 5.2 #400
This End Up
Original owner since 1975
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Posted: Aug 07, 2017 - 10:48 PM
The rudders in the pic are my "junk" set which came to me used. The previous owner didn't shim them so the amber areas you see have been cut away by the sharp edges of the casting. Hanging them on my boat I shimmed them in nice and snug in addition to radiusing the sharp corners on the casting. So yes, the rudder/casting gap is indeed larger than normal. Haven't tried it yet, but I'm confident the knot idea will work quite well.
I'm planning to do the same this winter. One thing, and perhaps the only thing, I miss about my old Hobie 16s is the adjustable rudder kick up force and the simplicity of the cam action.
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Hobie 16 (3 formerly)
MacGregor 25 (formerly)
Chrysler Dagger 14 (formerly)
NACRA 5.0 (currently)
High Point, NC
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Posted: Aug 09, 2017 - 09:55 AM
I too like the bit of steerage idea when approaching the beach and adjust the up rudder position basically parallel to the hull bottoms by adjusting the length of the 1" OD stop tubing that goes around the bungee between the rudder and tiller tube.
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Hobie 16 (3 formerly)
MacGregor 25 (formerly)
Chrysler Dagger 14 (formerly)
NACRA 5.0 (currently)
High Point, NC
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Posted: Aug 09, 2017 - 11:10 AM
Lengthening the stopper tube is a clever and useful idea for maintaining steerage while still having the rudder tensioned. If the bungee is taught there's never a problem as you can simply cleat the pull-down line and there's no slack. However, once the bungee stretches and loosens, the rudder flops down and puts slack in the system, creating the potential for a jam. A knot past the cleat does nothing to limit the slack induced when the rudder rotates down under it's own weight.
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Mark Hirte
Nacra 5.0 1983 - (1st cat)
Deerfield, Il
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Posted: Aug 09, 2017 - 05:00 PM
Don't think so.
I'm pretty sure those are my old rudders. The amber area you are looking at are the result of the boat being towed at speed with the mast up and the rudders on . . . . . mast hit an overhead tree at hound level, knocked the entire boat off the trailer and boat got dragged down the asphalt road about 100 yards on the transoms before finally skidding to a stop sideways.
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Philip
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Posted: Aug 12, 2017 - 01:32 PM
Here are a couple of things I have done to reduce the rudder down line jam problem. Based on Nick Drapes suggestion I tied my bowline at "just the right" point on the down line so that the knot engages the strap/shackle just as the rudder reaches the full up position.
Second, I installed spacers and washers that act as a centering guide on the clevis pin turning point. This will help keep the line from wondering to the side.
My next step will be to take P.M.'s suggestion on line as the the New England Sta-Set indeed does stretch a lot and is not the greatest choice for this application.
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Hobie 16 (3 formerly)
MacGregor 25 (formerly)
Chrysler Dagger 14 (formerly)
NACRA 5.0 (currently)
High Point, NC
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