Standing rig life, Old topic, different take

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tnell

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Registered: Apr 15, 2004

Last visit: Jan 13, 2023

Posts: 358
Posted: Aug 12, 2017 - 06:10 PM

I'm planning to replace my rig over the winter. My question pertains to the lifespan of diamond wires.
Would you all consider the diamond wires to last

Much longer than the rest of the rig,
A little longer,
The same,
Less?

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Tim
Collierville (Memphis), TN
Supercat 15--sold :(
Hobie monocat--given
Vanguard 15--traded for...
Nacra 4.5--sold
Nacra 5.7
Hobie 14–sold to make room for...
Supercat 17–sold
--
tominpa

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Posted: Aug 12, 2017 - 07:25 PM

Good question. I just replaced everything this year except diamond wires.

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Tom
NACRA 5.7 (1984 Sail 181)
Pennsylvania
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tnell

Rank: Mate

Registered: Apr 15, 2004

Last visit: Jan 13, 2023

Posts: 358
Posted: Aug 12, 2017 - 07:37 PM

I'm for sure replacing it all except possibly the diamonds. Putting in a new mast step rod as well. Gotta take the old pretzel shaped one out! Hoping for little to no corrosion on the beam for that job.

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Tim
Collierville (Memphis), TN
Supercat 15--sold :(
Hobie monocat--given
Vanguard 15--traded for...
Nacra 4.5--sold
Nacra 5.7
Hobie 14–sold to make room for...
Supercat 17–sold
--
tamumpower1

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Registered: Nov 19, 2015

Last visit: Oct 22, 2024

Posts: 398
Posted: Aug 12, 2017 - 08:08 PM

Seems like everyone I talk to has never replaced them on the old school boats. I've done them on my boats for the peace of mind though. If the lower fittings are getting splashed with salt water you'd assume they would be the same as the shrouds.

When I got my Nacra the previous owner since 1984 said the rigging was original including stays etc. The thimbles were starting to bend but as far as corrosion it was still ok. Was a Houston Texas boat so saw both fresh and salt water.

I suspect the rigging was 316 stainless not 304 like is commonly used on all the replacement stuff I see online now and that's why it lasted so long. I went ahead and got a big spool of 316 cable when I replaced all of it. It rates at about 85% the strength of 304 but upping the size from 1/8" to 5/32" fixed that. Probably not necessary considering a lot of manufacturers probably used 316 cable stock anyway.

I'd guess that's why you hear some people saying OEM rigging lasts longer. Just a different grade of stainless
jalex

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Posts: 508
Posted: Aug 12, 2017 - 09:21 PM

I feel like the loads on diamond wires are more static in nature and therefore less prone to fatigue than shrouds and forestay. So I would say the diamond wires have a significantly longer service life, for a trailered boat, I always deduct some service life for a beach stored boat. I also don't think I would lose my rig on an 18 foot boat due to diamond wire failure so it's not as much of a concern for me as shrouds and forestay. If I had a larger rig I'd be more concerned.

Edited by jalex on Aug 12, 2017 - 10:31 PM.
dmgbear55

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Posts: 258
Posted: Aug 12, 2017 - 10:57 PM

I'm not sure what the right answer is here. But if a diamond wire fails, your mast will likely fail quickly thereafter under the kinds of loads that made these old wires fail. The economy of pushing the limit on diamond wires would be quickly eclipsed by the failure of the mast and the cost of mast replacement. Just add them to your rigging order and don't think about it anymore. All of these old wires can likely last well beyond where we all push them to. The problem is that when they fail it is a really, really big problem, that didn't need to happen. It is ok to let someone make some money off us once in awhile.

--
dg
NACRA 5.2 #400
This End Up
Original owner since 1975
--
tnell

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Registered: Apr 15, 2004

Last visit: Jan 13, 2023

Posts: 358
Posted: Aug 12, 2017 - 11:21 PM

Well you guys have presented the exact two sides of the situation I have already considered! Yeah, I'm really not too worried about a failure. I'm not sailing in heavy stuff very often. BUT....as dmg says, the cost of a failure is a lot higher than the cost of replacement. I guess I'll change the diamonds out too as priorities permit.

--
Tim
Collierville (Memphis), TN
Supercat 15--sold :(
Hobie monocat--given
Vanguard 15--traded for...
Nacra 4.5--sold
Nacra 5.7
Hobie 14–sold to make room for...
Supercat 17–sold
--
tamumpower1

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Last visit: Oct 22, 2024

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Posted: Aug 13, 2017 - 12:58 AM

I know not everyone is super handy but you can get a swager for like 60-70 bucks. The thimbles are usually reusable if they were decent quality to begin with and the copper sleeves factor out to something like 90 cents where I get them. Get a whole spool of cable and you are good to go to make any length of rigging you need for a long time.

I changed out the upper turnbuckle fitting for a yoke and used a cut down chain plate at the upper tang to allow the diamonds to be made with thimbles. I think the marginal cost of the actual diamonds was like 16 bucks or something each.
MN3

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Posted: Aug 13, 2017 - 03:34 AM

diamond wires go through the same metal fatigue due to repetitive loading and unloading, just like side stays

the diamond wires are exposed the same amount to the elements -

you absolutely should replace your diamond wires

I personally would never re-use thimbles - they are prone to crack and failure during normal (single) use

Edited by MN3 on Aug 13, 2017 - 03:43 AM.
HULLFLYER

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Posted: Aug 13, 2017 - 07:41 AM

As I have posted before, I would advise against using factory made wires for many boats. A lot of manufactures have begun using cheap SS Wire Rope from less than ideal Asian sources. Get them made locally using Mil/Aerospace spec wire made in the USA or EU, and genuine Mil/Aero spec thimbles, forks and etc. It has not cost me any more than factory supplied parts. On more than one occasion actually less. Demand that the thimbles, forks etc. are packed with Lifecaulk or 5200 before swaging so that water will not intrude. I never buy coated wires, you can not inspect what you can not see. No friggin with the riggin
MN3

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Posted: Aug 13, 2017 - 09:18 AM

+1

QuoteAs I have posted before, I would advise against using factory made wires for many boats. A lot of manufactures have begun using cheap SS Wire Rope from less than ideal Asian sources. Get them made locally using Mil/Aerospace spec wire made in the USA or EU, and genuine Mil/Aero spec thimbles, forks and etc. It has not cost me any more than factory supplied parts. On more than one occasion actually less. Demand that the thimbles, forks etc. are packed with Lifecaulk or 5200 before swaging so that water will not intrude. I never buy coated wires, you can not inspect what you can not see. No friggin with the riggin
tamumpower1

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Posted: Aug 13, 2017 - 11:56 AM

MN3

I personally would never re-use thimbles - they are prone to crack and failure during normal (single) useEdited by MN3 on Aug 13, 2017 - 03:43 AM.

Yea you have to be careful. I had a whole package of new ones from salty dog I think that I threw out because they were distorting within the first year of use. But then I salvaged some from a 70s hobie that have the hobie stamp on them and they are twice as thick and don't have a mark on them even after decades. If I have to buy any I try to get the thickest ones I can.

I've never gone to the trouble of packing the sleeves. It would probably extend the life of the rigging a lot but I think I would still end up replacing it every other season just for peace of mind since it's so cheap to do in the garage anyway. I wonder if it affects the holding strength of the crimp to essentially have a lubricant in there. One crimp on 1x19 wire holds something like 80% of the breaking strength of the cable so if you were doubling up on the crimps It wouldn't matter even it it reduced the hold by 25%
MN3

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Posted: Aug 13, 2017 - 01:54 PM

tamumpower1
MN3

I personally would never re-use thimbles - they are prone to crack and failure during normal (single) useEdited by MN3 on Aug 13, 2017 - 03:43 AM.

Yea you have to be careful. I had a whole package of new ones from salty dog I think that I threw out because they were distorting within the first year of use. But then I salvaged some from a 70s hobie that have the hobie stamp on them and they are twice as thick and don't have a mark on them even after decades. If I have to buy any I try to get the thickest ones I can.

I've never gone to the trouble of packing the sleeves. It would probably extend the life of the rigging a lot but I think I would still end up replacing it every other season just for peace of mind since it's so cheap to do in the garage anyway. I wonder if it affects the holding strength of the crimp to essentially have a lubricant in there. One crimp on 1x19 wire holds something like 80% of the breaking strength of the cable so if you were doubling up on the crimps It wouldn't matter even it it reduced the hold by 25%

you may be on to something with older/thicker thimbles - i have not dealt with many of them, i use them mostly for HM splices

re: packing them - it's just to keep water out
Catman uses locktite in there

Edited by MN3 on Aug 13, 2017 - 02:34 PM.
samc99us

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Posted: Aug 14, 2017 - 08:43 AM

HULLFLYERAs I have posted before, I would advise against using factory made wires for many boats. A lot of manufactures have begun using cheap SS Wire Rope from less than ideal Asian sources. Get them made locally using Mil/Aerospace spec wire made in the USA or EU, and genuine Mil/Aero spec thimbles, forks and etc. It has not cost me any more than factory supplied parts. On more than one occasion actually less. Demand that the thimbles, forks etc. are packed with Lifecaulk or 5200 before swaging so that water will not intrude. I never buy coated wires, you can not inspect what you can not see. No friggin with the riggin

Do you have a good source for this? On the hydraulically swagged rigged, which is what most higher performance boats use, the failure point is corrosion inside the unselaed swagged fitting. I could try to caulk myself on a set of new rigging but I don't think it would do much.
tnell

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Registered: Apr 15, 2004

Last visit: Jan 13, 2023

Posts: 358
Posted: Aug 14, 2017 - 09:36 AM

This is kinda why I brought up the wd40 topic a few days ago. For fittings that aren't caulked or sealed (or if the sealant has deteriorated) it seems like the wd40 or some other rust inhibitor would help prolong the life of the wire.

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Tim
Collierville (Memphis), TN
Supercat 15--sold :(
Hobie monocat--given
Vanguard 15--traded for...
Nacra 4.5--sold
Nacra 5.7
Hobie 14–sold to make room for...
Supercat 17–sold
--
Jonathan

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Posts: 23
Posted: Sep 14, 2017 - 01:55 PM

tamumpower1I know not everyone is super handy but you can get a swager for like 60-70 bucks. The thimbles are usually reusable if they were decent quality to begin with and the copper sleeves factor out to something like 90 cents where I get them. Get a whole spool of cable and you are good to go to make any length of rigging you need for a long time.

I changed out the upper turnbuckle fitting for a yoke and used a cut down chain plate at the upper tang to allow the diamonds to be made with thimbles. I think the marginal cost of the actual diamonds was like 16 bucks or something each.

Matt,

I am somewhat handy and looking to make some rigging. Do you have a link of where you get your supplies/swager?

Jonathan Grant
Mesa, AZ
Solcat - gone
Prindle 16 - gone
Prindle 19/spin - gone
Nacra 20 - gone
Prindle 18/2 -
F18 - future list
Edchris177

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Posted: Sep 17, 2017 - 09:20 AM

I have read dozens of threads here stating that coated wire is not as good.(retains moisture, can't inspect, etc).
After purchasing my little Girly boat, (Dart/Spark/Sprint 15, same boat), I did a bunch of reading on the UK Dart site.
A few years ago, production of these boats was repatriated back to the UK, from S. Africa. A consortium of people who have been involved with the boat since forever bought up the rights & all spares & now support/sell under Windsport Catamarans, & are the supplier of class Legal parts.
These boats are sailed in salt, under common reports of winds up to & gusts over 40mph, & use coated wire.
Brian Phipps, one of the principles has stated several times that the SS wire uses oil to lubricate the strands during manufacture, & prevent corrosion later. They use PVC coating to keep the oil from staining sails, & to retain the oil.
https://www.windsport.co.…arent_id=339&img_id=1055
I don't have any test data, but these guys have been around a long long time, I have to believe they know what they are doing.

--
Hobie 18 Magnum
Dart 15
Mystere 6.0XL Sold Was a handful solo
Nacra 5.7
Nacra 5.0
Bombardier Invitation (Now officially DEAD)
Various other Dock cluttering WaterCrap
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MN3

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Posted: Sep 18, 2017 - 10:18 AM

All sounds legit to me
What are their "replacement intervals"?

if on a 2 year cycle, and somewhat maintained (washed off after use) i am sure coated would be fine (unless had some manufacturing defect)
samc99us

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Posted: Sep 18, 2017 - 12:19 PM

Strip the coating. That nonsense is just that-nonsense. I stripped the coating on some less than 1 year old standing rigging last week, on a boat that is regularly rinsed and sailed in brackish water, not ocean water, and there were rust stains already present on the wires. A friend lost his rig 2 years ago because the wire rusted through underneath the coating and the shroud failed in the middle. My 1.5 year old standing rigging is rust free on the wires, that isn't to say they aren't rusting inside the fittings but at least they won't fail elsewhere.

Use chafe protection on your sails instead, i.e dacron insignia tape.
dmgbear55

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Posted: Sep 18, 2017 - 06:13 PM

I am not a metallurgist, but I do know that seeing discolored SS is not necessarily from corrosion, it is more often than not from contamination of various oxides that have no impact on strength. Being discolored is just that, discolored. On the kinds of SS we use it will take many years for it to corrode to the point that it will fail from corrosion. That a SS wire failed more often than not will be from overload, fatigue or other manufacturing defect. I was just wandering around several of the SS wire rope manufacturer's sites for vinyl covered SS wire and all of them stated something similar to the following:

"A vinyl coating adds an extra layer to protect the wire from dirt, grit, moisture and other abrasions. The coating also helps to seal in lubrication, reducing wear on pulleys and sheaves. A vinyl coated cable is also easier to handle." (from USCARGO Control)

Hard to imagine that they are wrong, since it is their business and their expertise. So in my mind it is about preference and appearance, rather than performance. If you are failing your wires you may want to consider the other failure modes more carefully, because corrosion of SS is much slower than fatigue and instantly topped by overload. I think most wire failures that were actually examined by experts in this area would tell you that poor swagging was the culprit in the failure. The dies that are used to make these fittings wear with use and if the operator is not inspecting their dies and their press carefully and frequently the super close tolerances that are required for a good swage will not be met and the designed breaking strengths will be greatly reduced.

--
dg
NACRA 5.2 #400
This End Up
Original owner since 1975
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