• ropewalker
  
  

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  Posted: Jan 04, 2018 - 12:48 PM

  I've been sailing a Hobie 18 for about a year, and am getting comfortable on it. I still have a lot to learn, but I'd like something that can do better downwind. I made the mistake of sailing with someone who has a spinnaker, and now I want one. .
  So, I'm looking for advice on used boats. I don't want a project boat or something that is hard to find parts for.
  I could add a spin to the H18, but I think I'd be better off getting a boat that was designed to use one from the start. The H18 is a bit heavy, and my wife and I have trouble pushing it uphill on the beach wheels.
  I thought about getting an F16, but I think a 17 matches our combined weight better and is still lighter than the 18.
  Are there certain boats to avoid? There's lots of information and misinformation online, and it's a bit hard to separate the two sometimes.
  
  --
  Brett
  2012 Goodall C2 with 2014 Hulls (warranty)
  1992 Hobie 18 w/ SX Wings (Sold)
  Tucson, AZ
  --

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• tamumpower1
  
  

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  Posted: Jan 04, 2018 - 01:09 PM

  I have a spin on my H18 and it’s a beast. And technically some 18s did have spins from the factory. The big bows handle it really well and it’s just as fast as anything if you sail it right. I paced a N17 for 2 hours in a distance race with spins up. If you search there’s a big thread on adding the spin on the H18 I made. One on here and one in the H18 area on the hobie forum.
  
  If you have trouble pushing it uphill on beach wheels then you need better wheels with big tires that are fully inflated. It makes a difference. My old wheels are twice as hard to push as the big balloon wheels in sand.

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• ropewalker
  
  

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  Posted: Jan 04, 2018 - 01:23 PM

  We have the balloon tires on Cat Trax. They're nice wheels and I made sure there was no sand in the bearings, but our rocky ground still makes it challenging to cross.
  Do you have the comptip mast? Does the spin attach below the comptip?
  
  --
  Brett
  2012 Goodall C2 with 2014 Hulls (warranty)
  1992 Hobie 18 w/ SX Wings (Sold)
  Tucson, AZ
  --

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• MN3
  
  

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  Posted: Jan 04, 2018 - 01:50 PM

  when you say 17.. do you mean a hobie17?
  cause unless you and wife are VERY small - this is a 1 person boat
  
  Are you talking Nacra 17? cause that's a whooole latta money and if you have that budget ...
  your choices are huge
  
  the step from an H18 to a F16 is pretty huge (in gear)
  totally do-able, but your rigging time will quadruple
  
  you can get a spin set up to work on almost any boat but the smaller the deck, the more impact all the additional lines and controls get in the way
  
  
  If you wish to really explore other brands/cats - tell us more about your budget, and sailing conditions and we can provide better recommendations

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• czbob75f
  
  

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  Posted: Jan 04, 2018 - 02:09 PM

  Has anyone here had any experience with Rick White's "hooter sail"? It's basically a genoa sail or a big jib.
  
  I had a Hobie 21 spinnaker on my Prindle 19 that I used in multiple Mug races, and other distant races including Rick's Steeplechase. It's a handful in a breeze!
  
  There is an article on the Hooter sail if you do a google search "Rick White the hooter sail"
  
  
  
  Edited by czbob75f on Jan 04, 2018 - 03:11 PM.
  
  --
  Bob Bitting
  Mooresville, NC
  1983 Prindle 16
  2012 A-Class Catamaran
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• MN3
  
  

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  Posted: Jan 04, 2018 - 02:32 PM

  Quote

  We have the balloon tires on Cat Trax. They're nice wheels and I made sure there was no sand in the bearings, but our rocky ground still makes it challenging to cross.

  
  
  For me its about 3 things, weight slope and balance of the tires
  1. I get all the weight off the boat i can within a few trips (main, cooler, radio and drybags) - will take off rudders and remove centerboards if i need to
  
  2. If i have a beach, i will traverse the boat side to side to change it to a gentle slope vs right up the hill
  
  3. the wheels have to be secure in the exact right spot.. other wise your fighting it and wasting energy and attention
  
  i can solo my 5.5 or 6.o up my beach this way
  of course i prefer help
  
  
  I think local conditions determines the optimal tire type and psi

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• samc99us
  
  

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  Posted: Jan 04, 2018 - 03:25 PM

  Ropewalker,
  
  I sent you a PM. I put an aftermarket spinnaker on my Hobie 18 as well and wasn't particularly thrilled with the setup. This was on an aluminum rig. Part of it may have been the kite (Smyth 18HT, not cut specifically for the H18) or possibly something else. I didn't spend a lot of time tweaking it, but I suspect the issue was the boards which are raked too far back for the kite resulting in lee helm downwing, and my rudder setup. It definitely needed EPO's, the plastics were too flexible for good control downwind.
  
  Also, do a full inventory of costs before going down this route. A new spinnaker is ~$1000, the bag plus hoop are $400, the pole is another $100, there are $50 in pole fittings and tackline blocks, then you have the spinnaker blocks themselves ($300) and the spinnaker sheet ($100). All that works out to $1950 worth of equipment you are adding to a boat worth about the same.
  
  You can probably find a good used Hobie Tiger for not much more than what it would cost you to add the spinnaker+sell your Hobie 18 for. That would also move you into a more modern/faster upwind package with self tacking jib and square top main, plus overall setup designed to take a kite. Just my 2 cents.
  
  -Sam

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• tamumpower1
  
  

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  Posted: Jan 04, 2018 - 04:30 PM

  czbob75f

  Has anyone here had any experience with Rick White's "hooter sail"? It's basically a genoa sail or a big jib.
  
  I had a Hobie 21 spinnaker on my Prindle 19 that I used in multiple Mug races, and other distant races including Rick's Steeplechase. It's a handful in a breeze!
  
  There is an article on the Hooter sail if you do a google search "Rick White the hooter sail"Edited by czbob75f on Jan 04, 2018 - 03:11 PM.

  
  
  From what I've read/heard the hooter and its article is mega old school and it's sorta written to sell sails...clearly. There's probably a very limited angle you can take that thing anyway and I'd be impressed if anyone has really put a new one on a boat in years. Most modern gennaker sails are realtively flat but not a on a 100 foot pole like the hooter. Just look at the F16/F18 boats.
  
  The spins we had Chip at whirlwind cut are slightly downsized F18 spins. If you get one ask for the Florida H18 spin. (technically the normal one he sells now but just in case he changed the size). I run a solid mast but 2 other Hobie 18's run the exact same spin and those are on comp tips. They used a H16 mast tang. I used a soft bale system that holds the head of the spin in the same position but I didnt have to rivet into the mast. Here's a shot of their boats drying out after a rain.
  
  
  They ran their pole height a little high so realistically you could drop the attachment point down about 10-12" and be fine. We have had them in heavy air and no problems with the comp tip masts. Heres the thread where a lot was discussed https://www.hobie.com/for…ewtopic.php?f=13&t=57416
  
  Cost was around a grand. 780ish for the spin, and then a long halyard, spin sheet and harken ratchamatic blocks. The other boats bag launched for awhile but now have snuffers. I made my own out of a pool noodle SNU copy. Sewed up the bag myself. It's really easy to make your own work, really. If you have to buy everything new they all up maybe 1500-1600.
  
  I have perfect helm with this spin and a 12 foot pole. Traveller is barely let out if at all so basically the sail plan is at full power. Helm problems come down to either pole length or traveler position issues. We used windsurfing masts cut down. I stuffed a H18 boom gooseneck in the back of my pole but the other guys just cut a notch in the back and slipped it onto the dolphin striker.

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• MN3
  
  

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  Posted: Jan 04, 2018 - 04:54 PM

  from what i recall: Rick's Hooter was designed for the Hobie Wave
  Possible to use on other boats but had limited range, appeal and use
  
  and in case you didn't know ...
  
  Rick started and ran a non hobie sanctioned Wave Fleet
  
  They used modified gear (tillers and tramps if i recall, maybe even sail cut but i can't recall the details) that hobie didn't sanction.
  
  they had annual / national races in the keys, and several other fleets held their annual races there at the same time (really nice venue)
  
  at the tradewinds event - http://www.photoboatgallery.net/f112041223
  
  they also had wave fleets/races in put it in bay, ohio

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• ropewalker
  
  

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  Posted: Jan 04, 2018 - 05:28 PM

  MN3

  when you say 17.. do you mean a hobie17?
  cause unless you and wife are VERY small - this is a 1 person boat
  
  Are you talking Nacra 17? cause that's a whooole latta money and if you have that budget ...
  your choices are huge
  
  the step from an H18 to a F16 is pretty huge (in gear)
  totally do-able, but your rigging time will quadruple
  
  you can get a spin set up to work on almost any boat but the smaller the deck, the more impact all the additional lines and controls get in the way
  
  
  If you wish to really explore other brands/cats - tell us more about your budget, and sailing conditions and we can provide better recommendations

  
  
  The N17 specs look good to me, but they are newer and there are reported problems. The responses I've read from Nacra (e.g. the dagger wells) have been up front and reasonable, so I think they handle troubles well. But, I've never seen one, let alone sailed on one.
  
  As for cost, the N17 is pushing the budget a bit. I've seen some older models (before the Olympic version) advertised for less than $10K.
  
  
  
  Edited by ropewalker on Jan 04, 2018 - 06:27 PM.
  
  --
  Brett
  2012 Goodall C2 with 2014 Hulls (warranty)
  1992 Hobie 18 w/ SX Wings (Sold)
  Tucson, AZ
  --

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• MN3
  
  

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  Posted: Jan 04, 2018 - 05:43 PM

  if that is your range ....
  
  I recommend you contact Robby (and Jill) of RedGear Racing (in Clearwater fl) and talk to them
  
  they are .... dealers/trainers (olympic) for several brands and can help get you in the right boat and train you how to sail it
  
  
  And if that is your range (and desired sled)... you're going from the grand-dad's Lincoln Continental to a modern, high tech, F1 carbon fiber rocket with lots and lots of control lines and turing blocks
  
  hang on and please post pics
  
  where do you sail?
  
  
  
  Edited by MN3 on Jan 04, 2018 - 05:47 PM.

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• Jonathan
  
  

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  Posted: Jan 04, 2018 - 06:48 PM

  Ropewalker,
  
  I have sailed with a guy that had a hooter on a P19 many years ago. Sailed upwind an a light breeze with it but it was a handful. Yea, I got hooked as well and ended up retrofitting a huge fat spin on a P19. Hard to look back once you get one. I kinda agree with the others. Plenty of later generation F18s (Nacras/Hobies) that can be had that are setup with the spin for under 5k. Maybe around 4K if you are patient.
  
  If you do the H18, I would suggest a noncomptip mast. When I did my P19, I used a mast bail from the nacra 20. My biggest issue was finding a pole. People have suggested using windsurfer masts. I have no idea what I ended up using. I dont remember what I used for my bag/hoop either. I MIGHT have just did a bag on the tramp. Somehow I ended up with a "bag" and a mid pole hoop that I still have. Heck, as I own a P18-2 I toy with the idea of adding a used spin setup as is, but then think I would rather have a newerish F18. The struggle is real....
  
  Jonathan
  Mesa, AZ
  Solcat - sold
  Prindle 16 - sold
  Prindle 19 - sold
  Nacra 20 - sold
  Prindle 18-2 - current
  C2 - Future

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• ropewalker
  
  

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  Posted: Jan 04, 2018 - 08:28 PM

  MN3

  if that is your range ....
  
  I recommend you contact Robby (and Jill) of RedGear Racing (in Clearwater fl) and talk to them
  
  they are .... dealers/trainers (olympic) for several brands and can help get you in the right boat and train you how to sail it
  
  
  And if that is your range (and desired sled)... you're going from the grand-dad's Lincoln Continental to a modern, high tech, F1 carbon fiber rocket with lots and lots of control lines and turing blocks
  
  hang on and please post pics
  
  where do you sail?Edited by MN3 on Jan 04, 2018 - 05:47 PM.

  
  I'm in Tucson, AZ. We usually sail in Lake Pleasant or Roosevelt.
  Are most of the additional control lines due to the spin?
  
  I also see some F18's for sale at what seem good prices. At 396lbs though, they're roughly the same (advertised) weight as my H18. But, they'd come with a spin and new hull design.
  For whatever reason, Used H18 Tigers and Wildcats seem to be attractively priced, so that's tempting.
  
  
  
  Edited by ropewalker on Jan 04, 2018 - 07:36 PM.
  
  --
  Brett
  2012 Goodall C2 with 2014 Hulls (warranty)
  1992 Hobie 18 w/ SX Wings (Sold)
  Tucson, AZ
  --

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• ropewalker
  
  

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  Posted: Jan 04, 2018 - 08:48 PM

  samc99us

  Ropewalker,
  
  I sent you a PM. I put an aftermarket spinnaker on my Hobie 18 as well and wasn't particularly thrilled with the setup. This was on an aluminum rig. Part of it may have been the kite (Smyth 18HT, not cut specifically for the H18) or possibly something else. I didn't spend a lot of time tweaking it, but I suspect the issue was the boards which are raked too far back for the kite resulting in lee helm downwing, and my rudder setup. It definitely needed EPO's, the plastics were too flexible for good control downwind.
  
  Also, do a full inventory of costs before going down this route. A new spinnaker is ~$1000, the bag plus hoop are $400, the pole is another $100, there are $50 in pole fittings and tackline blocks, then you have the spinnaker blocks themselves ($300) and the spinnaker sheet ($100). All that works out to $1950 worth of equipment you are adding to a boat worth about the same.
  
  You can probably find a good used Hobie Tiger for not much more than what it would cost you to add the spinnaker+sell your Hobie 18 for. That would also move you into a more modern/faster upwind package with self tacking jib and square top main, plus overall setup designed to take a kite. Just my 2 cents.
  
  -Sam

  
  I sent you a PM in response.
  I have seen Tigers for a couple thousand more than I paid for my H18. This certainly is attractive. Nothing against Hobie, but I do like the looks of the Nacra H18 too. I wouldn't mind getting as new as I can afford.
  
  Brett
  
  --
  Brett
  2012 Goodall C2 with 2014 Hulls (warranty)
  1992 Hobie 18 w/ SX Wings (Sold)
  Tucson, AZ
  --

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• MN3
  
  

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  Posted: Jan 04, 2018 - 09:14 PM

  Quote

  Are most of the additional control lines due to the spin?

  
  yes! can go from an empty tramp to a spaghetti monster quickly (lines everywhere)
  
  competing for deck space (and adding to the giant hockle waiting to happen) with your jib sheet, main halyard, mainsheet and traveler line.. you now have an additional:
  
  new spin tack line on main beam (or other)
  new spin halyard a few feet up a mast that may or may not be part of the halyard system
  new spin sheet running across your tramp
  turning blocks on port/stbd front beam
  turning blocks on prt/stbd side stays
  probably a bungee and block somewhere above or below deck to help control all the line when slack
  possibly a bungee system to help suck up excess spin sheet when snuffed
  
  
  Are you a racer?
  If not ... i would recommend a different breed
  
  like a newer N570 or similar

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• MN3
  
  

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  Posted: Jan 04, 2018 - 09:17 PM

  Jonathan

  Ropewalker,
  Plenty of later generation F18s (Nacras/Hobies) that can be had that are setup with the spin for under 5k. Maybe around 4K if you are patient.

  
  
  can you show me examples at this price?

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• MN3
  
  

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  Posted: Jan 04, 2018 - 09:18 PM

  [quote=MN3]

  Quote

  Are most of the additional control lines due to the spin?

  
  yes! can go from an empty tramp to a spaghetti monster quickly (lines everywhere)
  
  competing for deck space (and adding to the giant hockle waiting to happen) with your jib sheet, main halyard, mainsheet, anchor and line if you have one, and traveler line.. you now have an additional:
  
  new spin tack line on main beam (or other)
  new spin halyard a few feet up a mast that may or may not be part of the halyard system
  new spin retrieval line (may be part of the halyard)
  new spin sheet running across your tramp
  turning blocks on port/stbd front beam
  turning blocks on prt/stbd side stays
  probably a bungee and block somewhere above or below deck to help control all the line when slack
  possibly a bungee system to help suck up excess spin sheet when snuffed
  
  
  Are you a racer?
  If not ... i would go a different route (personally)
  
  like a newer N570 or similar with a spin
  
  
  
  Edited by MN3 on Jan 04, 2018 - 09:20 PM.

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• dssaak
  
  

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  Posted: Jan 04, 2018 - 09:56 PM

  Whoa, hey .... I have an F16 and rigging time is NO WAY quadrupled compared to an H18 with a spinnaker. Also, I can sail the F16 Blade from main only to main, jib & spinnaker solo. Even with everything being rigged, I can be on the water in less than an hour doing all the set up by myself including raising the mast.
  
  If you were a little closer, I have a Hobie Tiger for sale (listed on this site) for a good price. Even though you aren't, I would find an F16 or F18 already set up with a spinnaker rather than updating a H18. Modern forms are a wonderful thing compared to older models. No offense intended because I still enjoy getting my H14 out on the right days.
  
  --
  dk
  
  Blade F-16
  Hobie 14
  Corsair F-242
  Mirage 25 (Sold)
  Hobie Tiger (Sold)
  Hobie Tiger (Sold)
  TomCat 6.2 (Sold)
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• MN3
  
  

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  Posted: Jan 04, 2018 - 10:10 PM

  Quote

  Whoa, hey .... I have an F16 and rigging time is NO WAY quadrupled compared to an H18 with a spinnaker.

  
  
  ok - tripple
  the point was - an h18 was a simple 70's desing
  an f16/18 is a 2000's desing with a LOT more controll lines, and supporting lines and blocks -
  it is a large leap in tech/gear
  
  
  how fast can you solo step your mast, rig your spin, jib and main?
  
  i can't rig either of my current cats (mystere 5.5 & 6.0) in much less than an hour (plus 30 to 45 min for a spin), or longer - I still think it's about 4x the rigging time :)
  
  ymmv

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• dssaak
  
  

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  Posted: Jan 04, 2018 - 10:40 PM

  We have the same back and forth about rigging my Corsair F-242. The boat designer says you should be on the water 45 minutes after you pull up to the ramp. I have had the boat five years now and never have been under 1.5x that time but others have.
  
  Before I bought my F16, I routinely rigged my Tiger (jib was already on the forestay) all three sails plus stepping the mast solo in less than an hour. Over the years I refined a process to where there was no wasted time and it worked for me. This was my first season with the F16 but with everything smaller and lighter, I have a target of 45 minutes for next season. I have no doubt I will get there even though the jib needs to be hanked on each time (no furler and I am not using the selftacker setup).
  
  How close are you to upstate NY because next summer I could come out and show you my process. I stand by less than an hour including the spinnaker.
  
  --
  dk
  
  Blade F-16
  Hobie 14
  Corsair F-242
  Mirage 25 (Sold)
  Hobie Tiger (Sold)
  Hobie Tiger (Sold)
  TomCat 6.2 (Sold)
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