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czbob75f

Rank: Lubber

Registered: Sep 28, 2005

Last visit: Jan 06, 2018

Posts: 17
Posted: Jan 04, 2018 - 11:44 PM

QuoteFrom what I've read/heard the hooter and its article is mega old school and it's sorta written to sell sails...clearly. There's probably a very limited angle you can take that thing anyway and I'd be impressed if anyone has really put a new one on a boat in years. Most modern gennaker sails are realtively flat but not a on a 100 foot pole like the hooter. Just look at the F16/F18 boats.

Yeah, I guess you're right.. a reacher at best. Mega old school ideas. What were we thinking putting a sail on the end of a 100 foot pole?

BTW, Is that Rich Brew sucking on the water bottle at the Rudder Club in your photo?

--
Bob Bitting
Mooresville, NC
1983 Prindle 16
2012 A-Class Catamaran
--
ropewalker

Rank: Lubber

Registered: Dec 19, 2016

Last visit: Apr 11, 2020

Posts: 64
Posted: Jan 05, 2018 - 01:05 AM

MN3
QuoteAre most of the additional control lines due to the spin?

yes! can go from an empty tramp to a spaghetti monster quickly (lines everywhere)

competing for deck space (and adding to the giant hockle waiting to happen) with your jib sheet, main halyard, mainsheet and traveler line.. you now have an additional:

new spin tack line on main beam (or other)
new spin halyard a few feet up a mast that may or may not be part of the halyard system
new spin sheet running across your tramp
turning blocks on port/stbd front beam
turning blocks on prt/stbd side stays
probably a bungee and block somewhere above or below deck to help control all the line when slack
possibly a bungee system to help suck up excess spin sheet when snuffed

Are you a racer?
If not ... i would recommend a different breed

like a newer N570 or similar

I would like to be able to sail more points in lighter conditions, pointing high as well as better downwind. It gets old just going back and forth across the lake between the same two spots. Also, sailing on an I20 with a spin was a blast, even in light wind.
I'm used to dagger boards by now.
I like the idea of the N17 because it is a lighter boat, with a lighter (CF) mast, and it's designed for a mixed crew. But, they're $15K+. I could probably find an F18 for much less.

Brett

--
Brett
2012 Goodall C2 with 2014 Hulls (warranty)
1992 Hobie 18 w/ SX Wings (Sold)
Tucson, AZ
--
MN3

Rank: Master Chief

Registered: Jun 20, 2006

Last visit: May 22, 2024

Posts: 7089
Posted: Jan 05, 2018 - 09:46 AM

dssaakWe have the same back and forth about rigging my Corsair F-242. The boat designer says you should be on the water 45 minutes after you pull up to the ramp. I have had the boat five years now and never have been under 1.5x that time but others have.

My buddy claims he can get from lot to wet in 45 min on his F-31 (but that's not extending the ama's out)
i have helped him rig 3 or 4 times - feels longer to me :)

QuoteBefore I bought my F16, I routinely rigged my Tiger (jib was already on the forestay) all three sails plus stepping the mast solo in less than an hour. Over the years I refined a process to where there was no wasted time and it worked for me. This was my first season with the F16 but with everything smaller and lighter, I have a target of 45 minutes for next season. I have no doubt I will get there even though the jib needs to be hanked on each time (no furler and I am not using the selftacker setup).

Extremely impressive
and not standard

I would expect a sailor who is new to this type of boat spend close to 2 hours rigging time

I have NEVER seen anyone with a modern design (n20, f16, f18) rig in under 1 hour (sans the gcat 5.0 turbo that may fit the f16 box rule but hardly a modern styled f16)

QuoteHow close are you to upstate NY because next summer I could come out and show you my process. I stand by less than an hour including the spinnaker.

haha - thanks but i will take your word on it - i have no reason to not believe you
samc99us

Rank: Mate

Registered: Apr 15, 2005

Last visit: Feb 21, 2024

Posts: 574
Posted: Jan 05, 2018 - 10:08 AM

ropewalker
MN3
QuoteAre most of the additional control lines due to the spin?

yes! can go from an empty tramp to a spaghetti monster quickly (lines everywhere)

competing for deck space (and adding to the giant hockle waiting to happen) with your jib sheet, main halyard, mainsheet and traveler line.. you now have an additional:

new spin tack line on main beam (or other)
new spin halyard a few feet up a mast that may or may not be part of the halyard system
new spin sheet running across your tramp
turning blocks on port/stbd front beam
turning blocks on prt/stbd side stays
probably a bungee and block somewhere above or below deck to help control all the line when slack
possibly a bungee system to help suck up excess spin sheet when snuffed

Are you a racer?
If not ... i would recommend a different breed

like a newer N570 or similar

I would like to be able to sail more points in lighter conditions, pointing high as well as better downwind. It gets old just going back and forth across the lake between the same two spots. Also, sailing on an I20 with a spin was a blast, even in light wind.
I'm used to dagger boards by now.
I like the idea of the N17 because it is a lighter boat, with a lighter (CF) mast, and it's designed for a mixed crew. But, they're $15K+. I could probably find an F18 for much less.

Brett

You can find an older F18 for less certainly, but you are also talking about boats that are 15+ years old with associated wear and tear, plus outdated well everything. Not an issue for recreational sailing, but if you want to race, its an issue. Keep in mind a brand new F18 is $25-$27k without a trailer, beach wheels, hull chocks or any covers. A brand new N17 Mk. 2 is $35k, also without any of the above. These are performance race boats and as such carry a bit of a price premium. Part of that is also a result of lower demand in recent years, manufacturers have to amortize $50k + in tooling in some way.

The Nacra 17 Mk. 1's are cheaper because the market has dried up. They are no longer class legal for the Olympics. They are also very squirrely boats to sail because they lack winglet rudders and therefore like to go down the mine or pop wheelies. The build quality on many is also suspect, even for club use you would be lucky to get 2-3 years out of one. Maybe 5 if you found a really high quality one (i.e Bora's). None of the Olympic sailors I have spoken with and/or sailed with liked the boat in its original form. The new Mk. 2's are much better built (all carbon construction), much safer to sail (far more pitch pole resistant), but they also carry an appropriate price tag and limited availability as initial production is all going to the Olympic squads.

Also, the N17 carries the same sail area as a F18 and from all reports the sheet loads are higher than on an F18 because the speeds downwind are a bit higher, resulting in higher apparent wind speeds and higher loads. If you take a look at the winning female crews, they are closer to a wrestler in upper body form than anything else.
samc99us

Rank: Mate

Registered: Apr 15, 2005

Last visit: Feb 21, 2024

Posts: 574
Posted: Jan 05, 2018 - 10:11 AM

MN3
JonathanRopewalker,
Plenty of later generation F18s (Nacras/Hobies) that can be had that are setup with the spin for under 5k. Maybe around 4K if you are patient.

can you show me examples at this price?

https://www.thebeachcats.com/classifieds/catamarans-for-sale/p15369-2005-hobie-tiger.html
samc99us

Rank: Mate

Registered: Apr 15, 2005

Last visit: Feb 21, 2024

Posts: 574
Posted: Jan 05, 2018 - 10:19 AM

ropewalker
samc99usRopewalker,

I sent you a PM. I put an aftermarket spinnaker on my Hobie 18 as well and wasn't particularly thrilled with the setup. This was on an aluminum rig. Part of it may have been the kite (Smyth 18HT, not cut specifically for the H18) or possibly something else. I didn't spend a lot of time tweaking it, but I suspect the issue was the boards which are raked too far back for the kite resulting in lee helm downwing, and my rudder setup. It definitely needed EPO's, the plastics were too flexible for good control downwind.

Also, do a full inventory of costs before going down this route. A new spinnaker is ~$1000, the bag plus hoop are $400, the pole is another $100, there are $50 in pole fittings and tackline blocks, then you have the spinnaker blocks themselves ($300) and the spinnaker sheet ($100). All that works out to $1950 worth of equipment you are adding to a boat worth about the same.

You can probably find a good used Hobie Tiger for not much more than what it would cost you to add the spinnaker+sell your Hobie 18 for. That would also move you into a more modern/faster upwind package with self tacking jib and square top main, plus overall setup designed to take a kite. Just my 2 cents.

-Sam

I sent you a PM in response.
I have seen Tigers for a couple thousand more than I paid for my H18. This certainly is attractive. Nothing against Hobie, but I do like the looks of the Nacra H18 too. I wouldn't mind getting as new as I can afford.

Brett

PM responded to. The Nacra Infusion F18 is a better boat than the Hobie Tiger, far more pitchpole resistant downwind and just smoother and easier to sail all around.

If you are targeting the $10k price range, you can probably get into a older Nacra Infusion or possibly AHPC C2 (https://www.thebeachcats.com/classifieds/catamarans-for-sale/p15269-2010-goodall-design-c2-f18.html , https://www.thebeachcats.com/classifieds/catamarans-for-sale/p14981-2011-f18-ahpc-c2.html).

Infusion Mk. 2's go for more as they are held in a bit higher regard than the C2 but mostly as they are just less available.
MN3

Rank: Master Chief

Registered: Jun 20, 2006

Last visit: May 22, 2024

Posts: 7089
Posted: Jan 05, 2018 - 10:21 AM

Thanks Sam, i have not seen any nacra f18's for the 4-5k range, I have seen some tigers.

samc99us
MN3
JonathanRopewalker,
Plenty of later generation F18s (Nacras/Hobies) that can be had that are setup with the spin for under 5k. Maybe around 4K if you are patient.

can you show me examples at this price?

https://www.thebeachcats.com/classifieds/catamarans-for-sale/p15369-2005-hobie-tiger.html
Jonathan

Rank: Lubber

Registered: Apr 24, 2002

Last visit: Sep 30, 2021

Posts: 23
Posted: Jan 05, 2018 - 11:52 AM

MN3Thanks Sam, i have not seen any nacra f18's for the 4-5k range, I have seen some tigers.

There will definetly not be a 2nd gen Nacra f18 for that price. There was a MKI for sale for san diego for $4,900 and was on this site and craigslist as of last week, but it might have sold as I cant seem to find it.

Jonathan

Edit. Actually here it is for $5,900 but I saw it for 4900 on craigs before.

https://www.thebeachcats.…k1-f18-w-2f-trailer.html

Edited by Jonathan on Jan 05, 2018 - 11:54 AM.
ropewalker

Rank: Lubber

Registered: Dec 19, 2016

Last visit: Apr 11, 2020

Posts: 64
Posted: Jan 05, 2018 - 12:01 PM

samc99us

PM responded to. The Nacra Infusion F18 is a better boat than the Hobie Tiger, far more pitchpole resistant downwind and just smoother and easier to sail all around.

If you are targeting the $10k price range, you can probably get into a older Nacra Infusion or possibly AHPC C2 (https://www.thebeachcats.com/classifieds/catamarans-for-sale/p15269-2010-goodall-design-c2-f18.html , https://www.thebeachcats.com/classifieds/catamarans-for-sale/p14981-2011-f18-ahpc-c2.html).

Infusion Mk. 2's go for more as they are held in a bit higher regard than the C2 but mostly as they are just less available.

Good info Sam in your PM: exactly what I was looking for.
It sounds like there were some build issues with early Nacra F18 Infusions, and possibly with the new 17's. I suppose that's to be expected, but I'd like to avoid those issues. I've read reports of weak hull seams in some of the NF18 Infusions - not good if widespread, and something to check when shopping.
The C2 certainly sounds like a good boat, and I'm surprised to hear you say there are more of them available than the NF18 Mk2. I was concerned with parts and support, and expected a small number to have been imported.
Any racing I do would be with a mixed multihull club, not specifically F18 since there aren't that many boats here. Monohulls and multihulls race together with a handicap (different start times). It's fun blasting past some high end mono's .

Brett

Edited by ropewalker on Jan 05, 2018 - 11:04 AM.

--
Brett
2012 Goodall C2 with 2014 Hulls (warranty)
1992 Hobie 18 w/ SX Wings (Sold)
Tucson, AZ
--
samc99us

Rank: Mate

Registered: Apr 15, 2005

Last visit: Feb 21, 2024

Posts: 574
Posted: Jan 05, 2018 - 12:23 PM

Jonathan
MN3Thanks Sam, i have not seen any nacra f18's for the 4-5k range, I have seen some tigers.

There will definetly not be a 2nd gen Nacra f18 for that price. There was a MKI for sale for san diego for $4,900 and was on this site and craigslist as of last week, but it might have sold as I cant seem to find it.

Jonathan

Edit. Actually here it is for $5,900 but I saw it for 4900 on craigs before.

https://www.thebeachcats.…k1-f18-w-2f-trailer.htmlEdited by Jonathan on Jan 05, 2018 - 11:54 AM.

That particular boat has been sailed to death and needs a new set of rags ($3500), the old set are completely shot even for club level racing.
samc99us

Rank: Mate

Registered: Apr 15, 2005

Last visit: Feb 21, 2024

Posts: 574
Posted: Jan 05, 2018 - 12:32 PM

ropewalker
samc99us

PM responded to. The Nacra Infusion F18 is a better boat than the Hobie Tiger, far more pitchpole resistant downwind and just smoother and easier to sail all around.

If you are targeting the $10k price range, you can probably get into a older Nacra Infusion or possibly AHPC C2 (https://www.thebeachcats.com/classifieds/catamarans-for-sale/p15269-2010-goodall-design-c2-f18.html , https://www.thebeachcats.com/classifieds/catamarans-for-sale/p14981-2011-f18-ahpc-c2.html).

Infusion Mk. 2's go for more as they are held in a bit higher regard than the C2 but mostly as they are just less available.

Good info Sam in your PM: exactly what I was looking for.
It sounds like there were some build issues with early Nacra F18 Infusions, and possibly with the new 17's. I suppose that's to be expected, but I'd like to avoid those issues. I've read reports of weak hull seams in some of the NF18 Infusions - not good if widespread, and something to check when shopping.
The C2 certainly sounds like a good boat, and I'm surprised to hear you say there are more of them available than the NF18 Mk2. I was concerned with parts and support, and expected a small number to have been imported.
Any racing I do would be with a mixed multihull club, not specifically F18 since there aren't that many boats here. Monohulls and multihulls race together with a handicap (different start times). It's fun blasting past some high end mono's .

BrettEdited by ropewalker on Jan 05, 2018 - 11:04 AM.

The seam issues only apply to Infusion Mk. 1's (basically 2006-2009 boats). Not all suffer from them, and its a relatively easily repaired problem by a competent composites shop or even home repair (I've re-glassed myself). The early N17's suffered from a lot more issues, I won't get into it here but Nacra was under intense pressure to get boats out the door for the start of the quad and hence there were a number of boats with issues.

I've seen a number of early C2's also suffering from seam issues, the problem there is the bottom seam/overlap is narrow (1" or so), so beach launch/landings and lots of sailing in short chop fatigue the joint and eventually split it. The other thing with the early C2's is some were overweight. Red Gear Racing/Sun n' Fun is the U.S dealer so there is good parts support and availability; the reason the early boats are cheap is they brought a lot of boats in during 2011 and 2012 in the build up to Worlds. Some of the earlier boats also have short boards, the long boards are a direct swap but at a far penny, $1800-$2200 a set depending on year.

Far less Nacra Infusion Mk. 2's were imported and they also don't suffer from any build quality issues from what I have seen. There are also modes where the Infusion is the faster boat, particularly downwind in sea state. In light air I might give the edge to the C2, but it really all comes down to the crew.

Your biggest issue is going to be availability, there is a growing F18 fleet in San Diego/So. Cal so the cheaper boats are getting scooped up left right and center. Bringing a boat back from the East Coast is doable, more so probably after F18 worlds in Sarasota, FL this October.
Jonathan

Rank: Lubber

Registered: Apr 24, 2002

Last visit: Sep 30, 2021

Posts: 23
Posted: Jan 05, 2018 - 12:32 PM

samc99usThat particular boat has been sailed to death and needs a new set of rags ($3500), the old set are completely shot even for club level racing.

Probably true, but to get a spin boat is what I was looking at in the 4-5k range. Not going to find any spin boat in that range with newer sails. Heck, i would assume his 18 has older sails then that one so it is a step up for that matter. That tiger you posted is decent though and worth a look at.

Jonathan
Jonathan

Rank: Lubber

Registered: Apr 24, 2002

Last visit: Sep 30, 2021

Posts: 23
Posted: Jan 05, 2018 - 01:00 PM

ropewalker
The C2 certainly sounds like a good boat, and I'm surprised to hear you say there are more of them available than the NF18 Mk2. I was concerned with parts and support, and expected a small number to have been imported.
Any racing I do would be with a mixed multihull club, not specifically F18 since there aren't that many boats here. Monohulls and multihulls race together with a handicap (different start times). It's fun blasting past some high end mono's .

If you get a C2. That would be 2 in Arizona.... Dare you....

Joanthan
ropewalker

Rank: Lubber

Registered: Dec 19, 2016

Last visit: Apr 11, 2020

Posts: 64
Posted: Jan 05, 2018 - 03:35 PM

Jonathan
samc99usThat particular boat has been sailed to death and needs a new set of rags ($3500), the old set are completely shot even for club level racing.

Probably true, but to get a spin boat is what I was looking at in the 4-5k range. Not going to find any spin boat in that range with newer sails. Heck, i would assume his 18 has older sails then that one so it is a step up for that matter. That tiger you posted is decent though and worth a look at.

Jonathan

Oh yeah, my jib is toast. The main is still crispy, but original.

--
Brett
2012 Goodall C2 with 2014 Hulls (warranty)
1992 Hobie 18 w/ SX Wings (Sold)
Tucson, AZ
--
ropewalker

Rank: Lubber

Registered: Dec 19, 2016

Last visit: Apr 11, 2020

Posts: 64
Posted: Jan 05, 2018 - 03:37 PM

Jonathan

If you get a C2. That would be 2 in Arizona.... Dare you....

Joanthan

Uh oh, a dare. Dang it. .
Do you single-hand it?

Edited by ropewalker on Jan 05, 2018 - 02:50 PM.

--
Brett
2012 Goodall C2 with 2014 Hulls (warranty)
1992 Hobie 18 w/ SX Wings (Sold)
Tucson, AZ
--
tamumpower1

Rank: Mate

Registered: Nov 19, 2015

Last visit: Oct 22, 2024

Posts: 398
Posted: Jan 05, 2018 - 05:12 PM

czbob75fBTW, Is that Rich Brew sucking on the water bottle at the Rudder Club in your photo?

Yep, the other spin boats are his
Jonathan

Rank: Lubber

Registered: Apr 24, 2002

Last visit: Sep 30, 2021

Posts: 23
Posted: Jan 05, 2018 - 08:07 PM

ropewalker
Uh oh, a dare. Dang it. .
Do you single-hand it?

Guess I didn't post my response.

I don't have one. I wouldn't single hand a spin boat. You could with the self tacker but then never hoist it.

Jonathan
MN3

Rank: Master Chief

Registered: Jun 20, 2006

Last visit: May 22, 2024

Posts: 7089
Posted: Jan 05, 2018 - 09:12 PM

Jonathan
ropewalker
Uh oh, a dare. Dang it. .
Do you single-hand it?

Guess I didn't post my response.

I don't have one. I wouldn't single hand a spin boat. You could with the self tacker but then never hoist it.

Jonathan

i own two cats with spins, manual full size (furling) jibs,
i solo 90% of the time
jlooby

Rank: Lubber

Registered: Feb 26, 2014

Last visit: Jul 29, 2024

Posts: 88
Posted: Jan 06, 2018 - 11:26 AM

I'll return to the original thread topic and blend with later posts leading up to my solicitation. Note I am far from an expert and speak only from experience/preference. Note I sail my H17s and F25C solo 100% of the time

A drifter/Code 0 is wonderful on my F25C and I prefer it to my roller furling spin. I have a H17 with super jib and spin and I wish I had gone with a simpler H17 main (which is a square top) and hooter. I find myself in light wind most of the time so being able to drift upwind with the hooter is appealing (I drift through fleets leaving them standing still at the start line in no apparent air on my F25C with Code 0). Having said this:

If anyone is selling their hooter setup I would very much like to buy it.

Thanks all,

James
MN3

Rank: Master Chief

Registered: Jun 20, 2006

Last visit: May 22, 2024

Posts: 7089
Posted: Jan 06, 2018 - 03:19 PM

we used to sail with a guy who had a h17 with spin
the pole was crazy long - but he was fast with that spin