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- Rank: Master Chief
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Posted: Jan 13, 2018 - 10:35 AM
Don't forget the WHomPer (old term for spinnaker on a monohull before beachcats were flying spins)
We brought 2 Mystere's to The Small boat fest in Cedar Key fl a few years ago and they saw me pull out my spin once - the rest of the weekend everyone was yelling to us "pull out your whomper" -
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Posted: Jan 13, 2018 - 10:37 AM
and can be on a halyard so you can completely drop the furled sail and reduce windage -
- Rank: Mate
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Posted: Jan 16, 2018 - 02:40 PM
Of course there is NO comparison between an H18 downwind and the Nacra 20 you tasted.
However....if you dial it all in right (sheets, sails, weight, etc..) the hobie 18 can be quick and fun downwind... you've got to get that big jib pulling....
Weight wise, you already know an F18 is close to the Hobie18.
The spin boats, essentially, only have 2 more lines than your H18, those extra being a spin halyard and a spin sheet..... HOWEVER, while you may not use the downhaul and rotator much on the H18, you will need to use them to get the most out of your rig when you have the spin...
Finally, if you keep the boat mast up, don't be intimidated by rigging time w/the spin.. keep an old spin in the spin sock and cover it.. when time to sail just run up your main and maybe the jib... if you want the jib...
I'd say around 340 lbs is the safe zone to move from the F16 to an F18 w/o experience on an F18. If you're solo or under 340, an F16 may be better.
Don't be overwhelmed... just start on light days, pay attention and learn from mistakes.
I went from an H18 with no spin... to a spin. I rigged an N17 spin setup on my H18. It was OK. Boat wasn't designed for a spin but you could make it work. I opted for a boat designed for a spin, and found myself sailing solo more often so I moved into an F16 Blade. An older design, but a TON of fun. Ironically, it's now for sale in the beachcats classified because I'm expecting to move overseas this spring/summer.
Edited by robpatt on Jan 16, 2018 - 02:42 PM. -
- Rank: Lubber
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Posted: Jan 16, 2018 - 04:38 PM
Yeah, I'm under 340, about 195 by myself.
I can solo the H18 myself on light days, which we have lots of here. We get heavy winds during summer monsoons, but those days the wind might go from 4 to 40 in a blink. Have to be watchful.
F18's seem to be more popular than F16's. I'll keep watching the classifieds.
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Brett
2012 Goodall C2 with 2014 Hulls (warranty)
1992 Hobie 18 w/ SX Wings (Sold)
Tucson, AZ
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Posted: Jan 18, 2018 - 06:12 PM
F16's as boats are great, well built, light enough to handle around the yard solo, possible to sail 1 up or 2 up etc. Unfortunately the class in the U.S is a bit disorganized, the boats don't carry weight much above 325lbs all that well which means in 2 up mode they are limited to smaller husband/wife teams or youth teams and in 1 up mode they aren't particularly competitive in course racing because of the high number of control lines and 1-up spinnaker take downs+hoists are a bit sketchy.
All this factors contribute to the class not being super healthy in the U.S. When looking for fleets with high participation numbers and thus more used boats on the market, you basically have the Hobie 16, F18 and A-Cat. Racing outside of that is all on handicap which is fine, but it also means dwindling numbers and older boats. -
- Rank: Lubber
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Posted: Jan 18, 2018 - 08:58 PM
It's even worse here in AZ. Everything I'm looking at is far away. We aren't exactly a formula anything mecca.
There are two i20's available nearby, and a couple of H16's for sale.
Most people here have H16's. There are a few I20's, an F18HT, a few H18's, and a couple of Nacra 5.2's I think.
I'm not a fan of the H16, and would rather just keep my old H18. It's less weight sensitive, no jib battens to hang up on the mast when tacking, and it has a better ride. It is a heavy beast, and stepping the mast is not pleasant.
I considered an I20 because of the carbon mast. It rides and turns very well. It's way more power than I need, and is an older design, so part availability may become an issue and it's heavier. I already find that replacement parts for the H18 are limited (like sails, trams and hulls), and more of them were produced compared to the I20.
Moving an I20 around on a slope is also a pain unless you have 3 or 4 people. We don't have big, flat beaches like in CA.
But, I have to be practical also. Finding a good boat is hard enough. Getting any good rigging/tuning information is likely to be difficult on an F16 locally, as is resale.
Thinking practically, I would probably be better off keeping the H18 for when my wife wants to go out, and buying an A-cat for when I want to race. We don't have a lot of space for storage though.
I suppose if I had a double trailer, I could stack them.
If I could find someone to crew for races, an F18 would work. They are more popular, and would probably resell easier. Although, I see lots of ads for F18's that have been up for a while.
I have to admit, I am more excited by the F18. This may be because my experience on a 16' boat is on an H16 though.
Brett
Edited by ropewalker on Jan 18, 2018 - 09:24 PM.
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Brett
2012 Goodall C2 with 2014 Hulls (warranty)
1992 Hobie 18 w/ SX Wings (Sold)
Tucson, AZ
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Posted: Jan 18, 2018 - 11:16 PM
Resale ??? I have never bought a boat I thought I wouldn't keep. That is likely why I am up to 5 now. Only Pete (I see he is on right now) is more of a collector than I am.
F16 - 240lbs ... best of all worlds if you are not into One Design racing. I drove 6 hrs to get my F16 and it was well worth the trip. Best boat I have every owned.
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dk
Blade F-16
Hobie 14
Corsair F-242
Mirage 25 (Sold)
Hobie Tiger (Sold)
Hobie Tiger (Sold)
TomCat 6.2 (Sold)
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Posted: Jan 19, 2018 - 12:53 AM
Geez, 5? Are you married?
Truthfully, I can only maintain so much. I'd rather sell something than let it gather weeds.
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Brett
2012 Goodall C2 with 2014 Hulls (warranty)
1992 Hobie 18 w/ SX Wings (Sold)
Tucson, AZ
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Posted: Jan 19, 2018 - 02:09 AM
I contacted someone about a used Viper and asked some questions about condition. He told me the tramp kept pulling out of the front groove, and there was a damaged shroud anchor that occurred when a swage fitting split, letting the mast fall. This apparently required cutting a hole in the hull to replace the shroud anchor, which was then patched over. I'm not certain how I'd assess the internal repair. It sounded like they had to replace a threaded sleeve, and rebed it to the internal brace.
The hull patch and tramp groove ought to be obvious I would think. Thoughts?
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Brett
2012 Goodall C2 with 2014 Hulls (warranty)
1992 Hobie 18 w/ SX Wings (Sold)
Tucson, AZ
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Posted: Jan 19, 2018 - 09:36 AM
Either the tramp bolt rope needs replacing or there is something very wrong with your tramp track (which is a big deal on these boats as it is inside the hull
As per the shroud anchor- something with that story is odd: the stay anchor/tang is all internal except the little nub above the deck. if a shroud swage failed... the mast would fall but how does that effect the anchor inside the hull? unless the mast fell ON the shroud tang and broke it off - i don't see how these are related
sounds like the anchor failed and the tang pulled out - or something like that
not sure but sounds odd
Putting a spin on your current boat sounds like a better and better option (ymmv)
Edited by MN3 on Jan 19, 2018 - 10:16 AM. -
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Posted: Jan 19, 2018 - 10:23 AM
This is a real factor
the used beachcat market is ... not healthy and reselling a beach cat for more than a few grand can be a real challenge in many locations
Edited by MN3 on Jan 19, 2018 - 10:52 AM. -
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Posted: Jan 19, 2018 - 10:25 AM
If you are spending around 10k on an F class boat, it would really be in your best interest to get to clearwater and get some training from red gear. (or other world class training on the other coast)
Edited by MN3 on Jan 19, 2018 - 10:25 AM. -
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Posted: Jan 19, 2018 - 11:16 AM
I have an '09 Viper (F16) and haven't had a lick of trouble with it. It's great boat, love it. I believe there was an issue with a fitting on the shrouds that needed to be changed out or it would cause a failure. Robbie looked at my boat and said it was already done. I don't remember the specifics of issue though I think it was a very simple fix.
My wife and I got the Viper when I was pretty new to sailing (2 years) and had only sailed boardless beachcats w/out spins up until then. She had 0 experience. We took a few licks at the beginning, nothing bad. We were careful of the conditions we went out in. I second what MN3 said about visiting Red Gear. We went and spent a few days with them and Robbie got us sorted out.
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Mac
Midlands South Carolina
AHPC Viper USA 366
A Cat USA 366
Super Cat 17
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Posted: Jan 19, 2018 - 11:29 AM
now that you say that - i think you are correct and i think i recall this issue and saw robby doing this fix out on early vipers (I was there buying sails or spin gear)
that "issue" makes a lot more sense than to me than a swage failure / mast drop causing the issue ... but who knows
That being said:
if this "issue" was not due to some trauma, was the "fix" done on both sides of the boat? -
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Posted: Jan 19, 2018 - 04:32 PM
Sounds like someone forgot to put tape on a ring ding and the pin came out. They did have some shroud anchor tang issues as others mentioned above, the repair was to screw a new beefier one into the hull if I recall. C2's are subject to the same issue FYI.
Tramps have been pulling out of slots in hulls since they were invented. Couple reasons there, it is possible the slot is cracked, equally possible the tramp itself is worn out. Neither are major issues and both are quick fixes (epoxy for the first, new tramp for the second).
I20's are great boats. The only parts that are an issue really are the daggerboards and masts. The rest of the parts are primarily interchangeable with the Nacra Infusion so good availability there as those boats are still in production. I cannot advise single handing this boat-there are guys at our club who occasionally do, but only when other boats are around to rescue, as self rescue is difficult at lighter weights. The masts do step pretty easily but they are still a tall rig and very expensive/impossible to replace so definitely a 2/3 person job. Locally a heavy team weighed an I20 vs. F18 (tough call because we sail in light winds and have a strong local I20 fleet), they ended up getting a C2 and are happy with that decision. Its a much newer boat than any of the I20's out there and well sorted, plus they have won races in lighter conditions on it.
There are some F18's on the market right now, but if you notice not a lot of Infusions (none I believe). Infusion Mk. 2's took the top 5 spots at last weekends Bluster on the Bay Regatta. I'm not saying C2's aren't competitive-they most certainly are in the hands of skilled sailors, but in the U.S there are more competitive teams on Infusions it seems so the knowledge base is a bit higher. That drives the resale value of Infusions Mk. 2's up a good bit.
Also, in terms of difficulty finding a boat, I would throw location to the wind initially, and focus on getting the boat you want at a price point you can accept. As I explained to a friend recently, you are shopping for a Bugatti Veyron, very few were built and as a result you have to expand your search region to find what you are looking for, or settle for something you aren't. -
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Posted: Jan 19, 2018 - 09:09 PM
Sam;
Good point about self-righting. I'd have to check if I can get enough leverage from a "power" pole attached to the dolphin striker with lines or a righting-bag to right an F18 myself, but certainly the lighter boat would be easier in that regard.
I've been thinking about the location issue: flights are expensive, and I just don't have time to take off to drive 30+ hrs each way to go look at a boat. This may mean I miss out on a good used boat because I can't get there fast enough or don't recognize it for what is it and don't even book the trip.
There are three F16's I'd want to look at: Nacra, Goodall, or Falcon. It looks like the Viper is the favorite.
The sure-thing would be a 3-4 year old demo boat from one of the dealers, at 60% above my budget. Of course, if a boat has been there that long, perhaps they'd be willing to negotiate some to get it gone.
It doesn't hurt to check.
For the Viper, there is the side-benefit of letting me get some lessons on the boat (I'm thinking Red Gear Racing), which would certainly be beneficial.
The Nacra dealer also has a 2013 boat for sale. They aren't in a pleasant place to visit this time of year. We can still sail here
.
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Brett
2012 Goodall C2 with 2014 Hulls (warranty)
1992 Hobie 18 w/ SX Wings (Sold)
Tucson, AZ
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Posted: Jan 19, 2018 - 09:33 PM
For a F16 it would be Goodall or Falcon. The Nacra has sorted out the issues but they are still a lesser known quantity and may be more expensive. If you are serious about a Viper I will inquire with my local guy if it's for sale and how much. Uship could drive it out and I can certify it for a nominal fee. -
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Posted: Jan 20, 2018 - 02:26 AM
Thanks Sam. See what he wants for it and PM me if he's interested.
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Brett
2012 Goodall C2 with 2014 Hulls (warranty)
1992 Hobie 18 w/ SX Wings (Sold)
Tucson, AZ
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Posted: Mar 16, 2018 - 12:41 AM
After much back and forth, I decided to check out a couple of boats on the west coast. One was an older Nacra "Mk1" Infusion, the other was a 2012 C2. I like the F16's, but they just aren't as available.
The C2 is in extremely nice condition, and I made an offer on it. I'm going to go pick it up this weekend. The seller is a very nice guy, and knows this boat. I'm excited to get this out on the water with him.
Sold the H18 today, so my wife is happy that we'll still only have 1 boat in the driveway.
Yay!
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Brett
2012 Goodall C2 with 2014 Hulls (warranty)
1992 Hobie 18 w/ SX Wings (Sold)
Tucson, AZ
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Posted: Mar 16, 2018 - 11:25 AM
Awesome - congrats!
I have skippered an older Capricorn and it was a great ride!
I recommend you bring a pen and paper to write every step down and video any intricate setup parts (for me: it's really hard to recall how to rig every part of a new boat)
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