• revintage
  
  

  • Rank: Mate
  • Registered: Aug 13, 2017
  • Last visit: Aug 22, 2024
  • Posts: 281

  Posted: Jun 27, 2018 - 05:56 AM

  Anyone have experience of this rope?
  
  Bought a few meters to use as forestay on my Nacra.
  
  A little puzzled as the rope is really fat at 6.5mm and when spliced just below 10mm. Haven´t stretched or loaded it though.
  
  Don´t expect the rope to be much thinner as it is extremely hard compared to other Dyneemas. The splice will probably thin out to something like 8mm.
  
  I usually prestrech at ca 4-500kg using my 10:1 mainsheet system and setting up between two trees.
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  Edited by revintage on Jun 27, 2018 - 05:57 AM.
  
  --
  Brgds
  Lars
  
  Frankentri 5.8/5.5/Inter20
  Aerow trimaran foiler
  
  https://www.facebook.com/groups/1192604934176635
  --

  • 
  •  
• MN3
  
  

  • Rank: Master Chief
  • Registered: Jun 20, 2006
  • Last visit: Dec 04, 2024
  • Posts: 7090

  Posted: Jun 27, 2018 - 07:40 AM

  I have sailed a 1/2 dozen times on a f31 tri that had it's shrouds replaced with this line
  same size i think
  it is pre-stretched and heat treated to reduce creep
  
  Line is "size rated" under load - so 5 mil will be fatter when not under load (being stretched)

  • 
  •  
• mikekrantz
  
  

  • Rank: Lubber
  • Registered: Mar 06, 2006
  • Last visit: Aug 23, 2023
  • Posts: 99

  Posted: Jun 27, 2018 - 10:37 AM

  5mm is overkill. You're replacing 5/32 1x19 wire that is rated at 1,493kg with a 5mm product that is rated at 3,810kg
  
  I use Marlow D12 Max SK99 for standing rigging applications. It's manufactured using the same heat treat process as Dux, but comes in smaller diameters.
  
  You should be using 3mm D12 Max SK99 that is rated at 1,790kg. I replaced all of the standing rigging on an Nacra 20 and reduced the weight of the standing rigging by 75%.

  • 
  •  
• revintage
  
  

  • Rank: Mate
  • Registered: Aug 13, 2017
  • Last visit: Aug 22, 2024
  • Posts: 281

  Posted: Jun 27, 2018 - 12:13 PM

  MN3,
  
  Wonder under what load this sturdy rope is down to 5mm .
  
  
  Mike,
  
  It wasn´t about rating needed, it was about the delivered 5mm being 6.5mm without load. Expected it to be a 5mm line going down to 4mm when loaded like the other Dyneemas I have tried. Hampidjan probably did it the other way specifying diameter under load.
  
  The rest I am aware of.
  
  I use a std Liros SK78 4mm on my 16sqm dinghy, the rope is quite loose without load(unlike the Dux), going down to 3mm with 100kg load. Doesn´t loose tension when stretched. Creep has been no object as the rig is without tension when on land.
  
  If I wanted a smaller diameter, Liros D-Pro Static would be my choice.
  https://www.liros.com/en/…/liros-d-pro-static.html
  
  
  
  Edited by revintage on Jun 27, 2018 - 01:17 PM.
  
  --
  Brgds
  Lars
  
  Frankentri 5.8/5.5/Inter20
  Aerow trimaran foiler
  
  https://www.facebook.com/groups/1192604934176635
  --

  • 
  •  
• MN3
  
  

  • Rank: Master Chief
  • Registered: Jun 20, 2006
  • Last visit: Dec 04, 2024
  • Posts: 7090

  Posted: Jun 27, 2018 - 07:42 PM

  revintage

  MN3,
  Wonder under what load this sturdy rope is down to 5mm .

  
  
  this much - thats dux on a 45' rotating mast (all colligo lines and fittings)
  
  
  
  Actually Mike K knows. He has a pull machine to test these kind of things - he knows real numbers
  
  
  
  Edited by MN3 on Jun 27, 2018 - 07:49 PM.

  • 
  •  
• revintage
  
  

  • Rank: Mate
  • Registered: Aug 13, 2017
  • Last visit: Aug 22, 2024
  • Posts: 281

  Posted: Jun 28, 2018 - 05:55 AM

  Will soon know ballpark numbers, testing at 100kg and 400kg .Edit:
  
  Was out and tested an hour ago. Used my 10:1 mainsheet system and pulled as hard as I could:
  Rope 5.5mm
  Splice 9mm
  
  Still to fat for me, as I want 4mm when stretched. Will order 5mm Liros D-pro Static. The answer lies in the weight Dux 5mm is 27gr/m Static is
  
  
  
  Edited by revintage on Jun 28, 2018 - 10:30 AM.
  
  --
  Brgds
  Lars
  
  Frankentri 5.8/5.5/Inter20
  Aerow trimaran foiler
  
  https://www.facebook.com/groups/1192604934176635
  --

  • 
  •  
• MN3
  
  

  • Rank: Master Chief
  • Registered: Jun 20, 2006
  • Last visit: Dec 04, 2024
  • Posts: 7090

  Posted: Jun 28, 2018 - 06:11 PM

  Quote

  Was out and tested an hour ago. Used my 10:1 mainsheet system and pulled as hard as I could:
  Rope 5.5mm
  Splice 9mm

  
  Did the trees move? :)
  
  5mm Liros D-pro : sounds like nice line ..
  
  I use a turnbuckle in my rig so creep isn't really an issue for me...
  
  hmmmm
  maybe i will splice my next forestay

  • 
  •  
• P.M.
  
  

  • Rank: Mate
  • Registered: Jan 14, 2004
  • Last visit: Sep 25, 2024
  • Posts: 866

  Posted: Jun 29, 2018 - 10:54 AM

  mikekrantz

  I replaced all of the standing rigging on an Nacra 20 and reduced the weight of the standing rigging by 75%.

  
  I think that this might be my boat. I think the weight savings was even more. I will look for pics. Mike is expert on this and highly recommended.
  
  I will say performance gain was incredible. The rig is stiffer, boat accelerates faster, and less helm due to the elimination of weight up high near the hounds. I don't know why anyone wants wire anymore. This is the schit . . .
  
  --
  Philip
  --

  • 
  •  
• MN3
  
  

  • Rank: Master Chief
  • Registered: Jun 20, 2006
  • Last visit: Dec 04, 2024
  • Posts: 7090

  Posted: Jun 29, 2018 - 12:52 PM

  Quote

  I don't know why anyone wants wire anymore. This is the schit . . .

  
  my hesitation would be line chafe aloft (i know you said you use a jacket up there) and vandalism by some douche with a sharp knife on the beach when parked overnight

  • 
  •  
• P.M.
  
  

  • Rank: Mate
  • Registered: Jan 14, 2004
  • Last visit: Sep 25, 2024
  • Posts: 866

  Posted: Jun 29, 2018 - 02:28 PM

  MN3

  Quote

  I don't know why anyone wants wire anymore. This is the schit . . .

  
  my hesitation would be line chafe aloft (i know you said you use a jacket up there) and vandalism by some douche with a sharp knife on the beach when parked overnight

  
  Good point regarding overnight on the beach. Chafe is not a problem. If it is the party is doing something wrong.
  
  I use a sacrificial braided cover and even it's not chafing. Might not use the cover next go around.
  
  --
  Philip
  --

  • 
  •  
• MN3
  
  

  • Rank: Master Chief
  • Registered: Jun 20, 2006
  • Last visit: Dec 04, 2024
  • Posts: 7090

  Posted: Jun 29, 2018 - 03:35 PM

  cat sailing porn: http://www.colligomarine.com/beach-cats/

  • 
  •  
• martin_langhoff
  
  

  • Rank: Mate
  • Registered: Oct 26, 2016
  • Last visit: Nov 04, 2024
  • Posts: 233

  Posted: Jun 30, 2018 - 02:02 PM

  How about creep? I have a foiling beachcat that's very finnicky with rig tension; I'm a lazybum that doesn't want to be re-checking with the loos gauge on each outing...

  • 
  •  
• MN3
  
  

  • Rank: Master Chief
  • Registered: Jun 20, 2006
  • Last visit: Dec 04, 2024
  • Posts: 7090

  Posted: Jun 30, 2018 - 02:48 PM

  Creep sizing.
  
  Our creep target is less than 0.1” per year of creep. We use the static load or pre-tension that a rig sees as the load number to use for creep. Most sailboats sit upwards of 95% of their time so Dynamic loads are ignored, most of the time. This has proved successful as we have rigged more than 750 boats around the world at this time. If you have a boat that you feel will have more use and dynamic loads will be more significant, simply oversize the line to accommodate that usage. Use the printable creep table here for determining your creep loads and thus the line size you need based on creep. Contact us here for help in sizing for creep.
  
  http://www.colligomarine.com/fundamentals/
  
  on the tri - they hand tighten each shroud with a load spreader
  i do it with my forestay/Portuguese turnbuckle ... (but i'm not racing nor foiling)
  
  this isn't my friend's boat: but that sam load spreader with some 3mm dux
  

  • 
  •  
• revintage
  
  

  • Rank: Mate
  • Registered: Aug 13, 2017
  • Last visit: Aug 22, 2024
  • Posts: 281

  Posted: Jun 30, 2018 - 03:14 PM

  With a beachcat creep shouldn’ t be an issue, as the rig is ”untensioned”after each raceday. With a creep of 0.1” a year under constant tension it should be unmeasurable on the typical beachcat.
  
  --
  Brgds
  Lars
  
  Frankentri 5.8/5.5/Inter20
  Aerow trimaran foiler
  
  https://www.facebook.com/groups/1192604934176635
  --

  • 
  •  
• revintage
  
  

  • Rank: Mate
  • Registered: Aug 13, 2017
  • Last visit: Aug 22, 2024
  • Posts: 281

  Posted: Jul 01, 2018 - 11:11 AM

  Quote

  Still to fat for me, as I want 4mm when stretched. Will order 5mm Liros D-pro Static. The answer lies in the weight Dux 5mm is 27gr/m Static is
  

  
  
  Missed the last of the sentence, should be: Static is 13gr/m with a breaking load of ca 2400kg.
  
  --
  Brgds
  Lars
  
  Frankentri 5.8/5.5/Inter20
  Aerow trimaran foiler
  
  https://www.facebook.com/groups/1192604934176635
  --

  • 
  •  
• martin_langhoff
  
  

  • Rank: Mate
  • Registered: Oct 26, 2016
  • Last visit: Nov 04, 2024
  • Posts: 233

  Posted: Jul 02, 2018 - 05:53 AM

  Is there a way to measure tension? Say, some specific wire lines need to be in the 18-20 range in loos gauge. I check periodically that the rig has that the right tension. How would I do this with dyneema based rigging?

  • 
  •  
• revintage
  
  

  • Rank: Mate
  • Registered: Aug 13, 2017
  • Last visit: Aug 22, 2024
  • Posts: 281

  Posted: Jul 02, 2018 - 02:21 PM

  Replace one of the Dyneema shrouds with 19x1 stainless steel and compare with the other, to get a reference for your tensiometer.
  
  Also Colligo has conversion a table for Dux/Loos: https://static1.squarespa…093298/LoosGaugeCals.pdf
  
  Another way could be to hang a Dyneema line from high up in a tree and load with different weights hanging at the lower end, to calibrate the Loos or RigSense.
  
  
  
  Edited by revintage on Jul 03, 2018 - 02:10 AM.
  
  --
  Brgds
  Lars
  
  Frankentri 5.8/5.5/Inter20
  Aerow trimaran foiler
  
  https://www.facebook.com/groups/1192604934176635
  --

  • 
  •  
• samc99us
  
  

  • Rank: Mate
  • Registered: Apr 15, 2005
  • Last visit: Feb 21, 2024
  • Posts: 574

  Posted: Jul 03, 2018 - 09:26 AM

  Dyneema rigging is fine on a race boat where you are trying to save every ounce aloft and checking it regularly.
  
  I would not advise using this on a recreational boat, or one that is kept mast up 95%+ of the time and you don't want to tip for regular inspections. Why? Chafe aloft is a real concern, sure it can be mitigated but do you really want to worry about it? Then you add the creep issues mentioned and its just not worth it on a recreational ride.
  
  If you want to save weight and avoid the complications of dyneema, look into dyform. We still use this on A-Cat diamond wires and I have a set of dyform shrouds that are nice, relatively light and don't change tension over a day of sailing or a week of sailing for that matter.

  • 
  •  
• revintage
  
  

  • Rank: Mate
  • Registered: Aug 13, 2017
  • Last visit: Aug 22, 2024
  • Posts: 281

  Posted: Jul 03, 2018 - 05:57 PM

  Hi Sam,
  No need to worry about chafing aloft if you take the right precautions with a rotating mast. Either add shrink tube or rope cover the first 20cm. Also Dyneema takes a lot of abuse before anything gets dangerous. But for me the big win is you don’t have to go to a rigging shop if you want to change anything, just alter a splice! Win-win with lower weight and lower cost . About creep, tell me more about the issues, actually I don’t follow you there? Could it be some recreational beachcat sailors are stupid enough to untension their rigs after the occational ride?
  
  --
  Brgds
  Lars
  
  Frankentri 5.8/5.5/Inter20
  Aerow trimaran foiler
  
  https://www.facebook.com/groups/1192604934176635
  --

  • 
  •  
• samc99us
  
  

  • Rank: Mate
  • Registered: Apr 15, 2005
  • Last visit: Feb 21, 2024
  • Posts: 574

  Posted: Jul 05, 2018 - 12:32 PM

  revintage,
  
  Chafe is certainly manageable but can appear where you may not think; for example it shows up on dyneema trap lines where the traps cross the shrouds (think long double wire spinnaker runs).
  
  While your statement is partially accurate regarding avoiding a rigging shop, its not 100% true. In order to build a correct set of shrouds/forestay for a beach cat, you really need to load the finished product with a thousand or more pounds of force (at least 50% of the rated breaking strength of the line) to set the splices. Otherwise you will be constantly adjusting the rigging for the first few outings and can end up in a situation where the shrouds are too long and you need to completely re-splice. Most folks don't have a hydraulic press available. You can use a mainsheet system as an alternative but need a spot to rig it.
  
  Creep can occur over time as well and most shroud systems are prone to changes in temperature (wire length increasing/decreasing). Point is you may show up to the boat one day and its okay, and a week later its no longer tensioned properly. Most rec sailors don't throw a loos gauge on the boat before they go sailing (heck many club racers don't either!). That's my point; with dyneema rigging you are more prone to error across the first few sails than with wire, which generally sets on the first outing and you are good for the life of the rigging.

  • 
  •  
•  
•  

Users on-line

• 0 users

This list is based on users active over the last 60 minutes.