Any recommendations on how to go about cleaning these up?
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John Schwartz
Ventura, CA
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Repair Help/Advice
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Posted: Oct 16, 2018 - 06:11 PM
I was able to acquire a set of the Prindle Gen II rudders for the 18-2/19... thank you Search Tempest... awesome tool for bargain hunters. But, they are going to need a little TLC...
Any recommendations on how to go about cleaning these up?
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John Schwartz
Ventura, CA
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Posted: Oct 17, 2018 - 04:11 AM
Hi JohnES,
I have the same rudders on my 18-2. I'm sure I'm not the expert some people on this site probably are, but I recently had what I think is very good success repairing a couple of similar (and one bigger) chips in my 18-2's rudders using a West System product called West System "Six 10," and a hand file. Six 10 is a thickened structural epoxy adhesive you buy in a tube for only $19.99. I bought mine at West Marine, where they usually have it in stock: https://www.westmarine.co…ve--10287571?recordNum=1
You put the tube in a regular $5 caulking gun to squeeze out the product. Here are two videos on it on youtube, and you'll find others:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0Cy3Fz803S0
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YOB-OE3-4UQ
The tube has two chambers in it, one holding resin and one holding hardener, and as you squeeze the tube it meters out the resin and hardener in the proper proportions. The resin and hardener then have to be thoroughly mixed together before you apply the product. The tube comes with a "mixing nozzle" which will do the mixing for you. The mixing nozzle can only be used one time, but you can buy additional nozzles. However, you can choose to not use the nozzle, which is what I did. I purchased a plastic mixing cup and plastic mixing sticks at West Marine in order to do the mixing (and I recommend buying them because they do the mixing very well, are cheap and reusable, and you can use the mixing stick to apply the product).
You'll have to prepare the surfaces of those chips so the Six 10 thickened epoxy can bond to them. I did it by lightly filing the surfaces clean with my hand file. Then I applied painter's tape just outside the chipped areas, wiped the surfaces clean with acetone, and then applied the mixed Six 10 using my plastic mixing stick. The Six 10 basically has the consistency of peanut butter, so you try to apply it with the mixing stick to basically a shape that approximates, but overfills the chips. You can shape it somewhat, but not very well since it's "goopy." You want the epoxy to stick out beyond the final surface profile you want to achieve, so you can file it down to the proper profile after it's hardened. It's really not necessary to be very concerned about the appearance at first. You'll have a glob on there that sticks out and doesn't look very good, but it doesn't matter at all, because you're going to file it down to the desired profile after it hardens.
You then wait a day (I waited two) for the stuff to harden. Now you come back, remove your painter's tape and go to work with your file. The stuff files easily, and you just file it down until you've achieved the profile that matches the adjacent surfaces of the rudder. You can get a very good match. Then you can sand it to get an even better match with the surrounding surfaces.
I haven't painted mine white yet, but I understand you're supposed to paint it, or I guess gel coat it if you know how, because epoxies don't hold up to long term to light exposure.
I wish I had some pictures of mine to post to show how good it came out. The product really hardens well and feels stronger than the surrounding surfaces.
Here's another good West System video I watched before doing mine: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_5uqyfiaufU. This is a structural repair of a major chip in a bow. It gets a little involved, but the principles of repairing the small rudder chips are the same, just on a smaller scale. The hand file takes the place of the angle grinder used in the video, and the $20 tube of Six 10 thickened epoxy takes the place of all the products he uses to fill the big chip in the video.
West Systems has a technical help hotline you can call with questions. I called them and they recommended the Six 10 to me.
Good luck.
(PS, thanks for your reply to my question in the other thread with the PDFs!; I'm getting ready to reply on that thread.)
Edited by CatFan57 on Oct 17, 2018 - 11:39 AM.
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1998 P18.2
Sailing out of SHBCC, NJ
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Posted: Oct 17, 2018 - 06:12 AM
Hey Catfan, good write up.
You can probably still edit your post.
Click the “edit” button, that will bring up a window with your write up. Then highlight your link & “copy” it.
Next, click on the little oval shaped button, just below where you type, the one labeled URL.
That will install a set of brackets into your post. Put your cursor in between the two sets of brackets, and “paste” the website you copied. This will result in a live link, readers can just click on the link & it will open.
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Posted: Oct 17, 2018 - 07:18 AM
Just a reminder that you will need the extended rudder gudgeons to get the best performance out of the newer style rudders, if you don't already have they are available at Murrays -
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Posted: Oct 17, 2018 - 10:42 AM
I'm a big fan of the West Six10 epoxy. It is super easy to work with. However, I'm not so sure how well it would hold up for trailing edge repair on rudders/dagger boards. You could also try Marine Tex, which is similar to the Six10 and probably even cures a little harder, but probably still won't hold up any better than the Six10.
In many cases, the reason the rudder (or dagger board) chipped out originally, is because there is little or no reinforcement material (i.e., glass) all the way at the edge of the rudder. The trailing edges are just thin gelcoat, which can chip very easily. If you just fill in the chips with putty, there's a good chance they'll chip out again because you're just relying on the strength of gelcoat.
The best approach for fixing trailing edges is a bit more involved. Basically, you start by laying up several layers of glass fabric on a flat surface and letting it cure. It can then be cut out into a thin, flat strip. Then grind out the fractured material from the trailing edge of the rudder and, using a dremel tool, cut a narrow groove in the trailing edge. Then epoxy the fiberglass strip into this groove, fair it to shape, and use filler as necessary to match the original profile. The fiberglass will add strength to the trailing edge and should hold up much better than gelcoat alone.
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Posted: Oct 17, 2018 - 11:05 AM
Thanks for the tip Edchris177. That fixed it, so hopefully it's a lot easier to follow the links now.
By the way, it might seem laughable to say, but I found that learning how to fix these kind of chips or damage with this $20 tube of thickened epoxy was kind of freeing and empowering. No more wringing your hands over possibly damaging your rudders or boards by accident, and how are you going to repair them(?). You know if it happens you'll be able to make a super-strong fix any time nicely and easily.
Edited by CatFan57 on Oct 17, 2018 - 12:15 PM.
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1998 P18.2
Sailing out of SHBCC, NJ
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Posted: Oct 17, 2018 - 11:06 AM
error, deleted
Edited by CatFan57 on Oct 17, 2018 - 12:13 PM. -
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Posted: Oct 17, 2018 - 11:16 AM
error, deleted
Edited by CatFan57 on Oct 17, 2018 - 12:17 PM.
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1998 P18.2
Sailing out of SHBCC, NJ
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Posted: Oct 18, 2018 - 11:48 AM
That sounds like a really complete and strong repair - good to know.
I can't claim to have long-term experience with the Six 10 I used to repair the chips in my rudders, since I only did it this summer, but as of now they seem to be holding very firmly and I have nice even edges. Each of the 4 or so chips I worked on was through the gel coat and showing a significant amount of the underlying core material of the rudder. Therefore, the Six 10 I applied is anchored to the underlying material, not just the gel coat, so I think it should have a lot more chance of holding than if it were just anchored to gel coat. The underlying material seems to be somewhat porous, such that the Six 10 appears to wick into it, hopefully enhancing the bond. I will say that in the areas in which I got some epoxy overlapped onto the adjacent gel coat, it seems to be adhered very tenaciously and could only be removed by filing/sanding. How long it might stay adhered to gel coat alone, I can't say.
Edited by CatFan57 on Oct 18, 2018 - 12:50 PM.
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1998 P18.2
Sailing out of SHBCC, NJ
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Posted: Oct 18, 2018 - 12:20 PM
If you look at the first pic in the original post, it looks like at the bottom 1/3rd of the rudder, the base material is gouged away, completely gone. That is the area where I think he is going to have trouble trying to get a lasting repair with just thickened resin. There needs to be structural material under the resin for a lasting repair. The other areas of the blade look like filling and fairing is probably all that’s needed.
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Posted: Oct 18, 2018 - 03:01 PM
There's a million ways you could go with this. My Mystere rudders were much worse than yours with up to an inch missing from the bottom tip (wish I had before pics) and cracked to the foam core at the top. At any rate, I ground out anything chipped, cracked, or other munged up and sanded with 120. Then I filled in chips and built up the tips with Evercoat White Marine Filler. http://www.evercoat.com/product-detail/part-number/100574/us/
It's tricky to use. Has a 5 minute pot life and sands in 20 minutes. If left to cure to overnight it turns to carbon steel...so get sanding after it kicks off for shape. Cracked areas into the foam were filled with whatever West Systems epoxy I had laying around and light woven cloth pieces.
After that I shot them with non-waxed white gelcoat at 40% gel, 40% Duratec, 20% thinner, 2% MEK-P through a 1.4mm tip hvlp gun at 50 psi. 3 coats. They've been curing for a couple weeks now and need very little finishing, just some Aquabuff 2000.
They're now better than factory finish. Many thanks to Gelcoat Yoda (Catmann) for the tips and advice. -
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Posted: Oct 23, 2018 - 01:14 AM
For the record, this is the strongest rudder repair stuff I have ever found. I shaped my centerboards back to original config, and later hit something underwater. The repair held and the original rudder materials around it took damage.
https://www.solarez.com/p…rez-extreme-3-5-oz-tube/
Check out the surfboard repair video on their site to see how easy this is to use on rubbers and centerboards using mylar to shape the gel. It cures in sunlight in about 5 minutes to sand. Solarez Extreme.
Do not use this where it will melt the sandwiched styrofoam in your hulls.
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Prindle 18-2 #244 "Wakizashi"
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Posted: Oct 23, 2018 - 08:49 AM
+1 to that Bob!! I carry a tube of that with me to major events in case a repair is needed; the only downside is it is tough to sand as it cures rock hard and contains milled fibers and other strengthening compounds. The other issue is using it to say glue a board back together won't work as you can't get U.V inside of carbon or painted surfaces.
For rudder/daggerboard repairs, Goodall have a good video series on the topic: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9TyWSnAvI9A -
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Posted: Jul 10, 2020 - 12:44 PM
I know this is an old post but I'm working on my first boat. 1976 prindle 16. Rudders are rough and one area of concern is wear the rudder control lines go through the rudder. When filling in the few chips I was thinking of inserting so aluminum tubing through the hole where the lines feed through the rudder. I was wondering if anyone had ever considered or done this to better distribute the stress? -
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Posted: Jul 10, 2020 - 10:01 PM
Do NOT put aluminum tubing into this situation unless you are going to firmly epoxy the tubing to the rudder inside. The line will leverage the tubing back and forth inside the rudder, and before long the hole will be even bigger and sloppier than before requiring you to completely fill and re-drill the hole.
You could use aluminum tubing wrapped with Mylar to fill the hole and then repair the surrounding area with Solarez Extreme (doesn't stick to mylar and extremely strong). The mylar will allow you to remove the tubing after it sets, which is 5 minutes in direct sunlight.
Edited by klozhald on Jul 11, 2020 - 06:03 PM.
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Sheet In!
Bob
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Prindle 18-2 #244 "Wakizashi"
Prindle 16 #3690 "Pegasus" Sold (sigh)
AZ Multihull Fleet 42 member
(Way) Past Commodore of Prindle Fleet 14
Arizona, USA
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Posted: Jul 14, 2020 - 05:14 PM
Awesome thanks for the advice. Yes I'm reshaping where the kick up lead feeds in and the hole area is blown out entirely. I will try and post an album in a bit. I'm also looking around for another replacement and found one gently used on eBay I'll likely order at the end of the month. -
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Posted: Jul 15, 2020 - 10:07 AM
Hard to beat Marine Tex.
https://www.interlux.com/…r/reducing-solvent-2333n
I like this product for thinning it out if I need it to flow.
Edited by gahamby on Jul 15, 2020 - 11:14 AM.
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Virginia
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