Used Viper F16, what to look for....
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Posted: Oct 18, 2018 - 02:48 AM
Thinking of switching from a Nacra Inter 20 to a Viper F16. I've never sailed a Viper, but like a lot about its 1-2 up flexibility. What will I miss about the Inter 20, and what are the known problem areas to look out for on used Vipers? Also, how much wind do you need to feel fully powered up on days when crew and skipper weight totals 420 lbs? -
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Posted: Oct 18, 2018 - 09:13 AM
pm sent -
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Posted: Oct 18, 2018 - 11:42 AM
maybe I'm wrong, but at 420lbs I think you are going to struggle with the F16 -
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Posted: Oct 18, 2018 - 06:41 PM
That was my thought exactly. At 420 lbs, I would think the Inter 20 he already has is the ideal boat.
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Posted: Oct 24, 2018 - 08:37 AM
I haven't done a ton of Viper sailing but enough to know the limits of the boat, and general structural issues. The biggest on there is the eyelets for shrouds have been known to fail, check with Goodall on your actual serial number and if the upgrade has been done (pretty straightforward). Beyond that its checking hull quality, foil quality, leaks and sail quality.
If you are considering sailing at 420lbs you best walk away. The Inter 20 and Nacra F20C are really your only choices for sailing at that weight. Even a modern high volume F18 will struggle.
For a boat that can carry up to 330lbs, but is more ideally sailed in the 290-315lb range the Viper is pretty nice. Power to weight ratio is on par with the Inter 20, and the option to go solo with the kite is nice, as is the ease of moving the boat around the boat park compared with the Inter 20.
The downside is the boat doesn't have a ton of reserve buoyancy/bow and in bigger conditions you practically need to be trapping off the rudder casting to keep the bow out of the water! I think c-boards/t-foil winglets will make a big difference here and the latest boats I think have trunks that support that option from the factory.
Edited by samc99us on Oct 24, 2018 - 08:39 AM. -
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Posted: Oct 26, 2018 - 12:45 PM
Thanks for the great replies all. Part of my logic was that I could solo the Viper in most conditions and enjoy it. I weigh 225 lbs. The desire to sail faster with crew would force me to lose some weight and be healthier... So, it could still be a good overall idea. I really appreciate the information concerning the shroud eyelets. I heard vague information about such an issue on very early Vipers. Nice to have the clarification. I know AHPC makes an amazing boat and corrects issues... -
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Posted: Oct 26, 2018 - 12:46 PM
I will probably stick with the Inter for now... -
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Posted: Oct 26, 2018 - 05:16 PM
One thing with the F16 is if you intend to race the fleet size isn't that healthy unfortunately, and the youth teams are more focused on the Nacra 15. Really in a lot of ways, besides solo use, the F18 is the current doublehanded platform of choice in the U.S, with the largest fleet and typical Nationals of 40+ boats. -
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Posted: Oct 27, 2018 - 05:19 AM
Accepting all that as true, I can't speak for traphappy but it appears from his first post that he became interested in the F-16 because of the 1 or 2 up flexibility it offers -- at least it offers it for light or medium weight guys. Having had the pleasure of crewing a few times on an I-20 this summer, I saw what an awesome, powerful boat it is, that handles the weight of 2 bigger guys like nothing. But it's so big and powerful it doesn't seem to offer even a big guy the ability to solo in winds beyond mild to mid level. And it sucks if you want to sail but are stuck on the beach because you have no crew available - which often seems to be the case. In comparison, last time out, I sailed at the same time as a medium weight guy who solo-launched and sailed his F-16 with ease (and, sorry to say, proceeded to literally sail circles around me and my crew in the very light air that day).
So the question is, is there a performance boat today that allows heavier guys the same 1-2 up flexibility that an F-16 seems to offer lighter/medium guys?
From what I've read/heard, it seems the F-18 doesn't do it(?). I keep hearing the F-18 is pretty much a 2 man boat. And I see it's listed at 397 lbs, which is only 24 lbs less than an I-20, so it doesn't seem to offer much advantage there. I understand they keep the F-18 weights where they are so people who invested in the racing class won't have their investments obsoleted - even though the technology exists to build them a lot lighter if there was an economic reason to do so.
Seems this question of whether there is a boat that allows a heavier guy the flexibility to sail solo or with crew has come up in a round about way before. This thread from 2010 discussed the Bimare 18 HT, which I understand weighs quite a bit less than an F-18 class boat: https://www.thebeachcats.…opic/topic/12175/start/0. In it, "davefarmer" said he solo sails his 18HT quite a lot - but said at 160 lbs, he's overpowered at 12kts. (Maybe a 225 lb guy could handle it in higher winds?) Then "Wolfman" said:
I don't know anything about the F17. Does it or the 18 HT solve the 1-2 up problem for bigger guys? Is there anything on the scene or new since 2010 that does?
Edited by CatFan57 on Oct 27, 2018 - 06:51 AM.
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1998 P18.2
Sailing out of SHBCC, NJ
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Posted: Oct 27, 2018 - 08:18 PM
I don't really understand this 1 or 2 up question. Just because a boat has three sails doesn't mean you have to put them up. I have been out solo in the Tiger main only in some pretty heavy breeze without issue. The answer to the question of what do you do when the wind is light .... leave the crew on the shore. So, what is prevailing wind in your area? Heavy, F16 ... light, F18. Or you can do what I did. Buy one of each.
CatFan57 ... did you guys pick a weekend for the 2019 Statue of Liberty Race yet?
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dk
Blade F-16
Hobie 14
Corsair F-242
Mirage 25 (Sold)
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Posted: Oct 28, 2018 - 01:05 AM
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Edited by traphappy on Oct 28, 2018 - 11:44 AM. -
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Posted: Oct 29, 2018 - 07:41 AM
1. Could be my question doesn't make sense; I post stuff here to learn from people w/ a lot more catamaran experience/knowledge than I have. But I came to the conclusion pretty fast that the "no crew available" problem, as an impediment to being able to go sailing when you want, sucks and isn't really tolerable at least for me. So I'm soloing my P18.2 now, which is obviously do-able - but it's still a pretty good load to push up and down the beach, launch, sail in strong conditions & de-launch alone. So I'm looking w/ envy at guys doing it a heckuva lot easier on a light boat like the F-16, which still has a lot of buoyancy for 2 guys.
It just seems people are recommending (see above) to a guy like traphappy, who's 225, that he "walk away" from the idea of an F-16 if he wants to be able to take a 200 lb crew occasionally.
Yesterday, a couple of guys were recommending the Inter 17, or Hobie 17, as boats that are good for sailing solo but also w/ crew when you want - so it seems the question comes up.
2. I'd heard/read multiple people say an F-18 is a two man boat; hadn't heard anyone say they solo it w/ just the main until you mentioned doing it. (I do realize the F-16 is designed to be sailed w/ just the main when solo.)
3. Dang, a F-18 & F-16 in the stable to choose from - hard to beat that combo, wish it was in the budget.
4. I checked and apparently there's no date set yet for the 2019 Statue race. This year it was the Saturday following the 4th of July, so I'm guessing they'll do the same for 2019, which would probably make it Sat, 7/6 w/ makeup date 7/7.
Edited by CatFan57 on Oct 29, 2018 - 01:22 PM.
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1998 P18.2
Sailing out of SHBCC, NJ
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Posted: Oct 29, 2018 - 04:00 PM
No worries on that -- KEEP ASKING! We can work out any communication/miscommunication issue... this is a great group of guys, many with TONS of practical experience.
I hear you on crew availability... this may be the pivotal concern on me choosing which boats I'll keep. I have a new-to-me BIG catamaran that I'll slip, and have the Hobie 18 that I've been sailing for years, and a Hobie Tiger that joined the fleet in early 2018. I'm considering thinning the fleet a little, as the H18 and F18 overlap in my practical function, and the ability to single-hand is something that is weighing on me. The H18 is a TANK and has proven well-able to handle my single-hand abuses, but I worry about beating up the F18. With crew, I can easily run either, but solo... I have significant concerns about launching, and especially retrieving the F18 to the trailer... and lesser concerns about depowering (putting a furling jib on the F18 would probably help with that). My H18 is easier to rig solo than is the F18, but that's less of an issue if mast-up storage is available.
Definitely, if he wants to race... a skipper/crew combo pushing over 400lbs won't be competitive on an F16. That same crew would have an H17 floating very low, but could sail an H18 well... but again, not competitively, against lighter crews. In general, catamarans are significantly affected by weight changes; some hulls handle it better than others.
Having a boat to singlehand and a boat for sailing with crew would be great, assuming infinite budget and storage! I think an A-cat for single and an F-18 for crew would be excellent... oh, and a much larger catamaran for overnight camping, and a high-speed tunnel-cat for commuting, and... :p I need to win the lotto, I guess.
It can be solo-ed in lower winds even with main and jib (it is kinda tough to tack with just the main). I haven't single-handed with three sails -- I won't rig the spin without crew, but I know some folks do. The F-18 is definitely built to do best with crew, but it can indeed be singlehanded... simpler to beach launch than trailer-launch, though.
Randii -
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Posted: Oct 29, 2018 - 06:05 PM
Great idea. Someone call Elon! -
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Posted: Oct 29, 2018 - 09:02 PM
CatFan57:
1. Absolutely, handling an F16 v an F18 on land is a huge difference. I move the F16s around the yard by myself with no problem at all. As a slightly older guy, I have to get one of kids to help when it comes to the Tiger or get out the lawn tractor to pull it around. On the beach where there is no mechanical advantage available, my sailing mates are quite jealous as our fleet is made up of Nacra 6.0s, 5.8, H21, Tornado, etc. If moving the boat around is your prime consideration ... F16 hands down. Those guys hate it when I move the boat myself.
2. My first cat was a Hobie 14. Tacking the Tiger main only is far easier than tacking the H14. I regularly sail all three sails solo in 10knots or less and two sails up to 15. I have been out twice in what I would consider survivor conditions of 30knots and brought the boat back without going over. Of course, serious racing solo is another consideration all together. As for the F16 solo, mine has the self tacking jib set up. It makes things a lot easier to take everything as long as the wind is not that heavy (still getting used to the F16).
3. I was supposed to sell the Tiger and one the F16s will be for sale in the spring. I don't do any F18 class racing so an older, less expense Tiger fit me fine as neither the boat nor the skipper are super competitive. I told my wife that none of you guys on this list want the Tiger so I am hoping to keep it for those three or four days per year that two up makes sense. Also, it is likely to be my Statue race boat going forward as I won't do that race without a spinnaker again.
4. Our cat fleet will likely be on Lake Champlain at the Mayor's Cup if it is that weekend. I think next year we get the split weekends again when the SOL is the first weekend and then we pack up and head straight to Plattsburgh for the MC on the next. Cat sailing is the best !!
Bottom line, I have pushed a boat up the beach at SHBCC at low tide and a big boat even with help is a chore. F16 all the way. Isn't there a nice Viper for sale there?
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dk
Blade F-16
Hobie 14
Corsair F-242
Mirage 25 (Sold)
Hobie Tiger (Sold)
Hobie Tiger (Sold)
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Posted: Oct 31, 2018 - 05:10 AM
As a relative newbie, w/ a place to keep my boat mast-up on the beach, I have to admit I'm presently averse to having to load my boat on a trailer and re-rig up at another location. Maybe if I get more practiced it would seem like less of a deal(?). Being able to sail back to back weekends, first the SOL, then fresh water on Lake Champlain, sounds like a major payoff for that work & travel though! I hope the schedule works out that way for 2019.
No Vipers, or perhaps something else a little smaller/lighter I'd consider, for sale here right now, at least to my knowledge. Actually, I think I'm not quite ready to make a jump. But like I said I'm finding myself looking w/ envy at guys pushing/sailing lighter boats solo, so the thought comes up.
Edited by CatFan57 on Oct 31, 2018 - 06:27 AM.
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1998 P18.2
Sailing out of SHBCC, NJ
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Posted: Oct 31, 2018 - 07:34 AM
h17's are dogs with 2 or more people on them - no fun (unless it's a date, and not a sail)
I solo my 5.5 with 3 sails all the time (basically an f-18)
I solo my 6.0 with 2 sails all the time solo - i do reduce sail area above 13 knots or so -
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Posted: Oct 31, 2018 - 12:05 PM
It is easy to get lazy with mast up storage, That is one reason that we have more than one cat. Setting up for a day or two is a pain but at Champlain we go for a week so it is worth it. If you were to join us there would be plenty of help to setup, breakdown, and move your boat. Everyone usually pitches in when a boat arrives. That said we traveled over an hour each way for a one day 20 mile sail on Lake George several weeks back. All 4 boat crews agreed that it was well worth doing.
On a side note moving our 300 lb Tornado on wheels is pretty easy for 2 of us. Not so for the Nacra 6.0.
Pete
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Pete Knapp
Schodack landing,NY
Goodall Viper,AHPC Viper,Nacra I20
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Posted: Oct 31, 2018 - 04:54 PM
Pete is one of the cats in our little cat pack. Make no mistake, he and his co-skipper are collectors and they had more boats this summer than his signature indicates. Anyway, I was one of the 4 boats on Lk Geo and it was well worth it. It seems such a chore to get it all together, rig, launch, un-rig, etc but at the end of the day, it was a blast and would do it again in a heart beat.
Our pack has been doing the Mayor's Cup on Lake Champlain for nearly 15 yrs. Open invitation to all the cats out there to come up North and join us. The PYS fleet pays no entry fee, gets a free tee shirt and one ticket to the after race buffet. This year most of us are going Monday to the following Tues with the race on Sat, 7/6. We do a bunch of destination sailing in between. If interested, contact me off line for details on where we stay and such.
I am not sure Pete has done the SoL Race but not wanting to leave the SHBCC is understandable. When you see all those boats on the beach, you know as a cat sailor that you have found heaven.
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dk
Blade F-16
Hobie 14
Corsair F-242
Mirage 25 (Sold)
Hobie Tiger (Sold)
Hobie Tiger (Sold)
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Posted: Nov 02, 2018 - 06:28 AM
1. Don't know that I'll end up doing it, but sounds like a great time, esp w/ a group doing it, and esp since I have a serious yearning for some fresh water sailing, hopefully someplace where winds can be counted on, so wanna see what sailing Champlain's all about. Sounds like you could have a pretty good lifestyle living on that lake.
2. If you like Tornadoes, I bet you'd like this high quality on-board video posted just @a month ago from the Tornado European Championships: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zGM0nSvjGhM. I was glued through the whole thing, really shows what racing them is like. Interesting how they position their weight to keep the transoms out of the water so much (think I saw some advice about that in the literature Klozhald archived about sailing P18.2/P19s).
3. I don't get how these older design boats that are 20' long and 10' wide can come in at only 300lbs when my 18.2 (based off the same design) is 375lbs.
Edited by CatFan57 on Nov 02, 2018 - 07:50 AM.
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1998 P18.2
Sailing out of SHBCC, NJ
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