Square top vs Pinhead on 21se

car_guy

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Posted: Sep 24, 2019 - 04:12 PM

My 21se came with a square top sail and it seems like it may be overpowered a bit, anything over 12knts of wind and I need to douse the jib to keep things from getting insane, part of this is due to an inexperienced crew. I realize the 21se is a very powerful boat but could the square top be too much? I may be get new sails next year and wondered if I’d be better with a pinhead? Or is this boat just that powerful by design.

Also during fall when it gets blowing pretty hard around here could I run my Hobie 18 sails? I understand I’d need to clear off the main halyard but other than that will there be any issues?
MN3

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Posted: Sep 24, 2019 - 06:04 PM

Quotemay be overpowered a bit, anything over 12knts of wind and I need to douse the jib to keep things from getting insane

yea, i believe
My 6.0 is a handful when i sail solo (and your boat is bigger!)
I furl often and removed the spin entirely.

thankfully there are many controls to reduce heeling and power:
weight placement, mast rake, diamond wire tension, down and outhaul, mainsheet tension and most importantly experience

Quote Or is this boat just that powerful by design.

it is just that powerful - 33' mast, more sail area than a nacra 20... you have a lot of sail area exposed to wind

QuoteI may be get new sails next year and wondered if I’d be better with a pinhead?

I am a fan of having multiple sails to adjust for wind conditions. Big fast sails for light to med air, smaller sails for bigger air. I would suggest you talk to a few sail makers and get their input for your boat. edit - of course crew weight (railmeat) can change a white knuckled ride into a fun-fest

I personally love the flat tops. they are designed to break free and let air fall off when overpowered but i only have ever owned 2 pintops, a very blown out h16 and a really blown out h18. i will defer to people on here with a better grasp and ability to articulate sail shape in this context

Edited by MN3 on Sep 24, 2019 - 06:46 PM.
ragebot

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Posted: Sep 24, 2019 - 06:53 PM

On his death bed Albert Einstein said "I only have two questions for God, why relativity and why turbulence; I am optimistic about getting an answer to the first" (not really he said earlier but this is a better telling of the story). Point is that a well designed square top greatly reduces turbulence which increases power. As a rule there is also more sail area high up where the wind is the fairest; even a big elliptical fathead does not have as much sail area high as a square top.

Another advantage of a square top is that it opens up and spills wind in a gust which is why lots of folks say it is like a first reef. My experience has been that the key to a square top is traveler adjustment. If you get it right the boat's course will be like a freight train on tracks.

I have a lot more experience on bigger boats than smaller ones but conventional wisdom is reef early and reef often. I know on beach cats reefing is not always as easy as on big boats but there are ways to do it. I also single hand a lot and often will reef starting out when it is not needed anticipating the wind will pick up later in the day, or even worse night.

Bottom line is a smaller sail or reefing are the two options to reduce power.
MN3

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Posted: Sep 25, 2019 - 09:28 AM

QuoteI know on beach cats reefing is not always as easy as on big boats but there are ways to do it.

If i recall correctly, your prindle was in the EC.
did your boat to have a reefing system for the race or currently?
dssaak

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Posted: Sep 25, 2019 - 12:29 PM

One of the guys we sail with has an H21 with a square top main. I have been on it many times. It is a very powerful boat both before and after the square top. Over 12kts shouldn't be an issue. We were racing in 20mph breeze and big swells last weekend. Lots of downhaul, lots of outhaul and drop the traveler if it gets to be too much. The boat will take a lot of breeze before doing something bad in experienced hands.

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dk

Blade F-16
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ragebot

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Posted: Sep 25, 2019 - 02:03 PM

MN3
QuoteI know on beach cats reefing is not always as easy as on big boats but there are ways to do it.

If i recall correctly, your prindle was in the EC.
did your boat to have a reefing system for the race or currently?

Yes. But from what I understand you need to also mod the main halyard to reef. Have not got that far yet; still working on extending the trailer hitch and gin pole.
car_guy

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Posted: Sep 25, 2019 - 02:26 PM

dssaakOne of the guys we sail with has an H21 with a square top main. I have been on it many times. It is a very powerful boat both before and after the square top. Over 12kts shouldn't be an issue. We were racing in 20mph breeze and big swells last weekend. Lots of downhaul, lots of outhaul and drop the traveler if it gets to be too much. The boat will take a lot of breeze before doing something bad in experienced hands.

I did notice with the extra beam the boat does tend to accelerate rather than heal and boy does it get going fast in a hurry... It also handles the waves very well, punched through 3-4' chop with ease while holding 17mph on the GPS with a poorly trimmed main and jib.

My experience with this boat is a big issue too, only sailed it for a few hours total. I haven't built trust like I have with my H18, Id be willing to take that boat out in a hurricane... more time with the 21 will probably make a load of difference.

Also, I'm sailing with wife and 4 year old son so I need to keep risks low, hard to friends interested in going for sail these days.

What should diamond wire tension be to de-power? My diamonds are incredibly tight, almost worried it's going to pull the rivets.
Andinista

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Posted: Sep 25, 2019 - 05:04 PM

Softer upper battens on the square top may help too. I saw in on Joyrider TV recently, on YouTube
MN3

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Posted: Sep 25, 2019 - 05:41 PM

QuoteYes. But from what I understand you need to also mod the main halyard to reef. Have not got that far yet; still working on extending the trailer hitch and gin pole.

if you need a simple set up, simply tie a mast track slug to your mainsail head ring (so your bolt rope can't pull out of the mast track). Add a cleat somewhere on the mast (mine is in the track, below the rotator) and bob is your uncle.

as mentioned elsewhere: my system has a 2:1 to help spread loads - ymmv

Edited by MN3 on Sep 25, 2019 - 05:45 PM.
car_guy

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Posted: Sep 25, 2019 - 05:57 PM

MN3
QuoteYes. But from what I understand you need to also mod the main halyard to reef. Have not got that far yet; still working on extending the trailer hitch and gin pole.

if you need a simple set up, simply tie a mast track slug to your mainsail head ring (so your bolt rope can't pull out of the mast track). Add a cleat somewhere on the mast (mine is in the track, below the rotator) and bob is your uncle.

as mentioned elsewhere: my system has a 2:1 to help spread loads - ymmvEdited by MN3 on Sep 25, 2019 - 05:45 PM.

Is there a good chance the bolt rope at head of sail will pull put of track when you tension mainsheet? I could see this as a major problem if you can’t get sail down with bolt rope wedged in the track...
MN3

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Posted: Sep 25, 2019 - 06:03 PM

QuoteWhat should diamond wire tension be to de-power? My diamonds are incredibly tight, almost worried it's going to pull the rivets.

i am sure someone here or on the hobie forums can give you optimal ranges for your rig: both diamond wire tesion and rake. these will be based on stock mains but a good start.

another note about your new rocket ship
if the sails are blown out .. they are fuller (harder to depower) and less responsive. a bad combo if under weight

a new jib could be purchased relatively cheap ($460.00 at whirlwind)
car_guy

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Posted: Sep 25, 2019 - 06:46 PM

Thanks I’ll check out the Hobie forums for tuning advice. The boat came with 2 sets of Calvert sails that are in decent shape, the gray sails seem almost brand new.
MN3

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Posted: Sep 26, 2019 - 08:31 AM

QuoteThe boat came with 2 sets of Calvert sails that are in decent shape, the gray sails seem almost brand new.

SWEET!
ragebot

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Posted: Sep 26, 2019 - 10:44 AM

MN3
QuoteYes. But from what I understand you need to also mod the main halyard to reef. Have not got that far yet; still working on extending the trailer hitch and gin pole.

if you need a simple set up, simply tie a mast track slug to your mainsail head ring (so your bolt rope can't pull out of the mast track). Add a cleat somewhere on the mast (mine is in the track, below the rotator) and bob is your uncle.

as mentioned elsewhere: my system has a 2:1 to help spread loads - ymmvEdited by MN3 on Sep 25, 2019 - 05:45 PM.

Just making sure this is the item in the pix

https://www.sailrite.com/…ail-SS-With-Rocker-13-32

I am also considering a 2:1 system. As a rule I like as little aloft as possible; especially stuff that can go wrong. But I do like the idea of spreading loads.
MN3

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Posted: Sep 26, 2019 - 12:11 PM

looks right but to be honest, i just grabbed the first pic of a track slug i could find

i have no idea if this is the correct one for your mast track.

your links shows the width of 0.401” - seems correct to me

i would measure your track gap to verify

i am pretty sure when i added one to my 5.5 sail (for use on the 6.0 sans reefing) i bought mine at west marine sans measurement, just grabbed one that looked right and verified it when i was home

Edited by MN3 on Sep 26, 2019 - 12:14 PM.
dssaak

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Posted: Sep 27, 2019 - 06:27 PM

By putting a cleat on the mast, isn't anyone concerned with compression loads on the mast?

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dk

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MN3

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Posted: Sep 27, 2019 - 08:36 PM

dssaakBy putting a cleat on the mast, isn't anyone concerned with compression loads on the mast?

↑↑ from above ↑↑as mentioned elsewhere: my system has a 2:1 to help spread loads - ymmv

for me: reefing as a tool to depower as a reliable safety feature, not wanted for cruising.
Mast is pretty stout - if it fails .... it has lived over 20 years and i thank it for its service and save up for anew

I have gone out a few times in heavy air to test it. worked very well but the conditions stunk. Main sail proved to not be up to the job but was amended.

If i want to sail in medium to almost heavy air, i put on smaller sails that don't need to be reefed

anything heavier, i am doing something on land

Edit: not sure if this was clear, i use my hook all the time but can take it off the hook and then cleat it needed for on the fly reefing

also not mentioned: you need to trust (or beef up) your turning block at the head of the mast if you keep it a stock set up

Edited by MN3 on Sep 27, 2019 - 08:58 PM.
smfinley

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Posted: Sep 29, 2019 - 07:37 PM

Nice looking sails. My 21SE has a whirlwind squaretop. Love the sails. I also went from an 18 to 21. To me it sails a lot like the 18, just bigger and faster. As wind picks up a 3rd adult makes a big difference, or the standard depowering tricks (downhaul, outhaul, traveler, etc). In most conditions the 21 is an awesome ride.

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Scott,
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