Hobie 18 vs Fox, weight or skill?

car_guy

Rank: Mate

Registered: Sep 25, 2010

Last visit: Oct 12, 2023

Posts: 180
Posted: Oct 12, 2019 - 03:16 PM

Had a great day sailing my 84’ Hobie 18 against a 20’ Hobie Fox. We went back and forth a across the bay about a mile each way. The entire time I was either pulling away from the Fox or we were same pace. There were three guys on the Fox and me solo on the 18. After speaking with the Fox owner he had only been sailing few years where I have been for about 8, neither of us race.

Was it the weight slowing him down or technique? I expected him to blow right by me, was great my old 18 could hang with something that state of the art.
Dogboy

Rank: Mate

Registered: Mar 19, 2004

Last visit: Jul 09, 2024

Posts: 963
Posted: Oct 12, 2019 - 05:42 PM

car_guy
Was it the weight slowing him down or technique?

You don’t mention windspeed, but if you were solo, I’m gonna guess it was probably less than 15mph. In that case, having three on board definitely would have put the Fox at a disadvantage. Skill of course also plays a huge factor. All else being equal (crew weights and skill), the Fox would blow away a H18 any day of the week.

sm
HULLFLYER

Rank: Mate

Registered: Aug 06, 2004

Last visit: Oct 20, 2024

Posts: 878
Posted: Oct 13, 2019 - 08:14 AM

Guessing the weight of the extra 2 on board the fox at 300 to 350 pounds. Put 8- 45 pound free weight plates (the kind you see in the gym) on your boat and see how you come out. If both of you are equally skilled, you would never keep up.
MN3

Rank: Master Chief

Registered: Jun 20, 2006

Last visit: May 22, 2024

Posts: 7089
Posted: Oct 14, 2019 - 08:10 AM

every boat has it's optimal wind range and crew weight
then add the skillset and equipment condition to that equation
bacho

Rank: Mate

Registered: Jun 17, 2011

Last visit: Sep 24, 2023

Posts: 783
Posted: Oct 14, 2019 - 10:54 AM

Simply reaching back and forth across a bay isn't a modern formula boats fast point of sail either.

--
Greenville SC

Offering sails and other go fast parts for A-class catamarans
--
MN3

Rank: Master Chief

Registered: Jun 20, 2006

Last visit: May 22, 2024

Posts: 7089
Posted: Oct 14, 2019 - 04:13 PM

bachoSimply reaching back and forth across a bay isn't a modern formula boats fast point of sail either.

what is a modern f boat's fast point?
samc99us

Rank: Mate

Registered: Apr 15, 2005

Last visit: Feb 21, 2024

Posts: 574
Posted: Oct 16, 2019 - 09:19 AM

About 120-130 degrees TWA, 18-22kts of breeze and flat water with the kite up.

Even heavy, the Fox should kill the Hobie 18 on a standard W-L course. The Hobie 18 doesn't point nearly as well as a modern spinnaker cat and goes about 2 kts slower upwind, and downwind without the kite it gets killed.

At the same time, the Fox doesn't handle weight particularly well. It is essentially a scaled up A-Cat. Going 3 up on that boat would hinder it a bunch, and like bacho points out, they aren't all that fast on a reach anyway.

The Hobie 16, 18 vs. a modern F18 or 20 footer are reasonably close on a reach, though the new hull shapes in the F18 (semi-planing) and C-boards in the 20 footers make that contest pretty open and shut as well.
MN3

Rank: Master Chief

Registered: Jun 20, 2006

Last visit: May 22, 2024

Posts: 7089
Posted: Oct 16, 2019 - 09:24 AM

QuoteAbout 120-130 degrees TWA, 18-22kts of breeze and flat water with the kite up.

this is a broad reach - correct?
samc99us

Rank: Mate

Registered: Apr 15, 2005

Last visit: Feb 21, 2024

Posts: 574
Posted: Oct 16, 2019 - 11:14 AM

yes.
MN3

Rank: Master Chief

Registered: Jun 20, 2006

Last visit: May 22, 2024

Posts: 7089
Posted: Oct 16, 2019 - 11:28 AM

Thanks Sam, that's what i thought - (just wasn't sure if "TWA" was a variable in point of sail)

so a reach IS the modern F boat's fastest point

i am not sure i understand bacho's point nor relevance to the OP's question - however it did lead to interesting data

Edited by MN3 on Oct 16, 2019 - 11:34 AM.
bacho

Rank: Mate

Registered: Jun 17, 2011

Last visit: Sep 24, 2023

Posts: 783
Posted: Oct 17, 2019 - 09:01 AM

Think about it, modern formula boats with self tackers are designed to race around windward leeward courses. They will smoke a Hobie 18 sailing at high angles towards a Windward buoy and sailing the low angles towards a Leeward buoy. By comparison they are not all that fast in between. As Sam mentioned, it can really be a tossup between a boat like a Hobie 18 and a formula 18 on a reach if the formula boat cannot carry a kite. Boats like a North American rig 6.0 be a superior weapon in that condition. I’ve even seen some hobie 16s in really stout wind travel at speeds on a reach that my F-18 would rarely see. The F-18 will reach that speed at a much deeper angle though.

How this relates to the OP is it doesn’t really say anything at all about either skippers skill or much about the boats. It’s quite an apples and oranges comparison. If neither skipper actively participates in racing, it’s likely they have little idea how much or little they might be sailing their boat to their full potential.

--
Greenville SC

Offering sails and other go fast parts for A-class catamarans
--
MN3

Rank: Master Chief

Registered: Jun 20, 2006

Last visit: May 22, 2024

Posts: 7089
Posted: Oct 17, 2019 - 10:23 AM

understood and makes sense - this is all good data

but - are you calling the H Fox a modern F boat?

bachoThink about it, modern formula boats with self tackers are designed to race around windward leeward courses. They will smoke a Hobie 18 sailing at high angles towards a Windward buoy and sailing the low angles towards a Leeward buoy. By comparison they are not all that fast in between. As Sam mentioned, it can really be a tossup between a boat like a Hobie 18 and a formula 18 on a reach if the formula boat cannot carry a kite. Boats like a North American rig 6.0 be a superior weapon in that condition. I’ve even seen some hobie 16s in really stout wind travel at speeds on a reach that my F-18 would rarely see. The F-18 will reach that speed at a much deeper angle though.

How this relates to the OP is it doesn’t really say anything at all about either skippers skill or much about the boats. It’s quite an apples and oranges comparison. If neither skipper actively participates in racing, it’s likely they have little idea how much or little they might be sailing their boat to their full potential.
Kevin219

Rank: Mate

Registered: Aug 10, 2010

Last visit: Jan 07, 2022

Posts: 356
Posted: Oct 17, 2019 - 11:04 AM

Quoteare you calling the H Fox a modern F boat?

Modern when compared to a Hobie 18.

To Bacho's point. I have a Hobie 16 and a Nacra 6.0 NA. The Nacra is so much faster the two can't be sailed side by side. Up wind down wind they might as well be sailing on different lakes.

However, when conditions are perfect for high speed runs, my H16 has seen 19.7knts whereas my N6.0 has only seen 19.1 knts.

Also, I do a lot of distance cruising, The fastest 1 hour average I've seen on my Hobie has been about 12knts and the fastest hour average I've seen on the Nacra is over 15knts.

All these numbers produced from my 959nm and counting sailing summer.

Kevin

--
Nacra 6.0 NA
Ogden Dunes, IN
--
dssaak

Rank: Mate

Registered: Nov 18, 2005

Last visit: Apr 19, 2024

Posts: 236
Posted: Oct 17, 2019 - 04:12 PM

Sorry but there is no comparison between modern Formula boats and the 70's designed Hobies. My F16 with main, jib and spinnaker on the water weighs 240 lbs.

It is not apples to apples if you say a Hobie can keep up if the Formula boat doesn't carry its kite. W/L have already been discussed. You can look to Statue race results if you want to see which boat comes out on top in distance situations.

Again, I do understand why the H16 continues to be popular on the racing scene but it is apples and oranges.

--
dk

Blade F-16
Hobie 14
Corsair F-242
Mirage 25 (Sold)
Hobie Tiger (Sold)
Hobie Tiger (Sold)
TomCat 6.2 (Sold)
--
MN3

Rank: Master Chief

Registered: Jun 20, 2006

Last visit: May 22, 2024

Posts: 7089
Posted: Oct 18, 2019 - 08:51 AM

QuoteSorry but there is no comparison between modern Formula boats and the 70's designed Hobies

Agreed
however .... every boat has it's day

and as the OP stated... he was beating up on an F20 with an ancient 18

WELL DONE!

PS i have had my clocked cleaned repeatedly by a 70 year old fart on a 30 year old stock 5.0 g-cat

I sail a loaded down 5.5 mystere (basically a f18) he was outsailing me taking advantage of every trick in the book to beat me back to shore (5 miles)

his 50 years of catamaran sailing and building experience trumped my 20 years of cat sailing
his boat could sail in shallower waters, and his boat weight was a few 100 less than mine

as i said, every boat has it's optimal wind and weight range - add skills and the better sailor will probably prevail

Edited by MN3 on Oct 18, 2019 - 09:04 AM.
car_guy

Rank: Mate

Registered: Sep 25, 2010

Last visit: Oct 12, 2023

Posts: 180
Posted: Oct 18, 2019 - 09:34 PM

Makes a lot of sense about the angle of sail and what these boats were designed for, either way the day was fun as hell and I’m satisfied with the old Hobie 18’s performance. Also, wind speed was about 10-12, just enough to get the windward hull skimming the water.

Edited by car_guy on Oct 18, 2019 - 11:40 PM.
shortyfox

Rank: Mate

Registered: Apr 07, 2017

Last visit: Nov 21, 2024

Posts: 367
Posted: Oct 19, 2019 - 09:33 AM

QuotePS i have had my clocked cleaned repeatedly by a 70 year old fart on a 30 year old stock 5.0 g-cat

It sounds like he's talking about me. My G-Cat is over 30 yrs old and I'm 69. The sailing club to which I belong has a handful of F-18s which go out most late afternoons. I know their boats are faster, point higher and with spinnakers forget down wind. However on a beam reach I can keep up pretty good keeping in mind I paid 2k for my G-Cat and all I've done to it is add new sails. Simply put, every thing being equal, I think that the biggest common denominator for speed in modern beach cats is size. There is of course a difference but it is so small that skill level or one verses two on the boat will easily make a difference. When you're blasting along can you really tell the difference between 18 and 18.5 kts?

--
Bill Townsend
G-Cat 5.0
Sarasota
--
hobie_fox

Rank: Lubber

Registered: Aug 01, 2021

Last visit: Aug 01, 2021

Posts: 1
Posted: Aug 01, 2021 - 07:07 PM

Hi Guys! I just now found this thread. Car_guy, was this in CT? Then it was likely me on my Hobie Fox, and I can offer some insight. Yes, you were definitely pulling away from us, sailing your boat fast.
Yes, 3 of us onboard, about 500 lbs. of crew. But that wasn’t the problem. The previous owner had hit plenty of rocks with both dagger boards, damaging the boards, but worse, the rear of both daggerboard trunks in the hulls. Leaking on both sides, so probably 15-20 gallons of water in each hull. So 500 lbs. of crew plus hundreds of lbs. of water onboard. I had the hulls repaired last Summer so it’s nice and dry inside when I pull it out of the water. Would love to sail with you again, either heads-up, or I crew on your boat, or vice versa. Was only able to sail 2x last Summer (2020), and not yet this year, but hoping to get out there soon.