Hoistable mast float? :: Catamaran Sailboats at TheBeachcats.com

Hoistable mast float?

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martin_langhoff

Rank: Mate

Registered: Oct 26, 2016

Last visit: Nov 04, 2024

Posts: 233
Posted: Oct 16, 2019 - 10:23 AM

Hi all!
I sail an 18ft Whisper cat. With 2 adults on board, it's easy to right, but soloing, or sailing it with my 9yo son, it's between marginal and impossible to right. Have the water righting bag and the right technique, but the moment the tip of the mast sinks a tiny bit, we just don't have enough righting moment.

Boat is kept mast up, ready to go at club. I am mulling some form of mast float on a halyard. ie: block attached to top of mast, small boat fender. This is for fun, safety, comfort, not racing.

Has this been done? What works, what doesn't?

We sail in Biscayne Bay, protected waters with on-shore winds and ample boat traffic. I respect the Aussie "make it turtle fast" approach, but those risks are not present where we sail.
martin_langhoff

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Posted: Oct 16, 2019 - 10:24 AM

Here's a video of an outing, with the 9yo helming from the wire. He didn't want to put his foot on the footstrap. You can guess how this ended. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8grbU2i7ap4
MN3

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Posted: Oct 16, 2019 - 10:48 AM

i have heard lots of ideas and discussion and ideas on this (including inflatable balloons for the mast head but yet to hear of a working solution

how about carrying an extra pfd that can be placed under the mast head while on the water to help keep it above water?

PS do you have the large righting bag? i know i need every drop of the larger murray's bag for me to have any chance of solo righting
badfish

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Posted: Oct 16, 2019 - 11:42 AM

I've always contemplated a water-activated CO2 powered inflator at the tip of the mast. Could be secured up there, or hoisted through one of those low-friction rings mounted up top.
Low windage if not deployed and lighter than a mast bob.
Never took it farther than that.

--
Joshua

Texas Gulf Coast
'82 Prindle 16 (Badfish)
'02 Hobie Wave (Unnamed Project)
‘87 Hobie 18 (Sold)
‘89 Hobie 17 (ill-advised project boat, Sold)
--
pknapp66

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Registered: May 09, 2009

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Posted: Oct 16, 2019 - 12:05 PM

Looks like the auto inflating float is a thing in the UK. Found several versions including this one.

https://www.watersportsou…-float-10086-p-6670.html

--
Pete Knapp
Schodack landing,NY
Goodall Viper,AHPC Viper,Nacra I20
--
MN3

Rank: Master Chief

Registered: Jun 20, 2006

Last visit: Dec 04, 2024

Posts: 7090
Posted: Oct 16, 2019 - 12:34 PM

https://www.secumar.com/e…ti-inversion-cushion-ksk

http://www.datrex.datrex.…atalogdetail/pdt_id/1064

sans an auto inflating unit - i would still save my cash and just use a pfd
PS I usually carry an throwable pfd - pretty sure this could be used in a pinch (this is actually REQUIRED by the coast guard for boats over 16')

QuoteAll recreational vessels must carry one wearable life jacket for each person on board . Any boat 16 feet and longer (except canoes and kayaks) must also carry one throwable (Type IV) device .

https://www.uscgboating.org/images/420.PDF

Edit - not sure what good a hoist-able would be. you can't hoist it during a capsize (well unless your name is FLASH), and not sure you could position it under the mast via a control line while the boat is on it's side. so you will need to swim to the mast tip anyway to place it.

Edited by MN3 on Oct 16, 2019 - 12:52 PM.
rch701

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Registered: Jul 06, 2009

Last visit: Nov 01, 2024

Posts: 395
Posted: Oct 16, 2019 - 04:46 PM

Here is a patent for the float and bag. Google Patents always digs up fun things.
https://patents.google.co…st&q=float&oq=mast+float

--
FYC, Nacra 5.2 "Chris's Flyer" & Nacra Playcat & Farrier Tramp
Previously owned: Trac 14, H14, H16, H18, N5.0, G-cat 5.0
--
martin_langhoff

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Registered: Oct 26, 2016

Last visit: Nov 04, 2024

Posts: 233
Posted: Oct 16, 2019 - 07:38 PM

I'm sorry I wasn't clear. Plan is to have a block and halyard fixed top of mast, and hoist the float before departure, depending on crew...
MN3

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Posted: Oct 16, 2019 - 09:21 PM

martin_langhoffI'm sorry I wasn't clear. Plan is to have a block and halyard fixed top of mast, and hoist the float before departure, depending on crew...

i would think anything up there not secured with bolts would flog like crazy
that would drive me nuts

when i solo my 6.0 i actually carry 2 righting bags
Andinista

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Posted: Oct 17, 2019 - 12:07 AM

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=pelqd5CKUgI
My fender flogs a lot but i never think about it. it’s been there for years, (sometimes i clean it). Before that i used a balloon tied to the sail head, so hoisted with sail. that one did bother a bit. Having a second halyard seems a bit too much to me. But above all, i doubt that the mast float helps righting the boat, because the tip still sinks a tiny bit, and the additional weight, with all that lever arm, probably outweights the little extra float. To me the mast float is just to avoid turtling, in case the mast leaks.
jlooby

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Registered: Feb 26, 2014

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Posted: Oct 17, 2019 - 07:28 AM

Some time ago, Hobie or Murrays sold a foam pad (~2-3' long?) with adhesive back that would adhere to and wrap around front of mast (at the top). This had much less windage than Hobie Bob and retained the teardrop foil of the mast. This teardrop shape didn't do much with that pintop sail but it may be different with today's squaretops. Of course it added weight to the top of the mast like the Bob thus actually decreasing righting moment when the boat heeled but it provided enough buoyancy to prevent turtling. If anyone knows of this and a source I would be interested and thankful for the direction.

Thanks,

James H17
shortyfox

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Registered: Apr 07, 2017

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Posted: Oct 17, 2019 - 08:03 AM

Murreys catalog has a gin pole that that tucks under the tramp. Never actually seen one, but looks like it would work. Curious if anyone out there has had experience with this device, I do a lot of single handing and no way I could right my boat by myself.

--
Bill Townsend
G-Cat 5.0
Sarasota
--
pknapp66

Rank: Mate

Registered: May 09, 2009

Last visit: Aug 14, 2024

Posts: 686
Posted: Oct 17, 2019 - 09:18 AM

jloobySome time ago, Hobie or Murrays sold a foam pad (~2-3' long?) with adhesive back that would adhere to and wrap around front of mast (at the top). This had much less windage than Hobie Bob and retained the teardrop foil of the mast. This teardrop shape didn't do much with that pintop sail but it may be different with today's squaretops. Of course it added weight to the top of the mast like the Bob thus actually decreasing righting moment when the boat heeled but it provided enough buoyancy to prevent turtling. If anyone knows of this and a source I would be interested and thankful for the direction.

Thanks,

James H17

This does not help with sourcing, but here is a link to an H16 mast with the flotation attached.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/…1a60a:g:EfYAAOSwNmddZuky

shortyfoxMurreys catalog has a gin pole that that tucks under the tramp. Never actually seen one, but looks like it would work. Curious if anyone out there has had experience with this device, I do a lot of single handing and no way I could right my boat by myself.

Search righting pole on this site and you will find some information including some pics from myself and others
in the technical section.

--
Pete Knapp
Schodack landing,NY
Goodall Viper,AHPC Viper,Nacra I20
--
badfish

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Registered: Jan 17, 2019

Last visit: Jan 13, 2020

Posts: 216
Posted: Oct 17, 2019 - 01:03 PM

At the end of the day, if the mast sinking even the slightest amount makes the boat un-rightable (not a word, I know), adding any kind of float to the end isn't going to help much. Sure it'll keep the mast out of the water, but you've also just added weight to the end of a very long lever.
My advice?
Skip the float. Seal the mast. Get a righting bag. Practice, Practice.

--
Joshua

Texas Gulf Coast
'82 Prindle 16 (Badfish)
'02 Hobie Wave (Unnamed Project)
‘87 Hobie 18 (Sold)
‘89 Hobie 17 (ill-advised project boat, Sold)
--
MN3

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Registered: Jun 20, 2006

Last visit: Dec 04, 2024

Posts: 7090
Posted: Oct 17, 2019 - 02:29 PM

QuoteSkip the float. Seal the mast. Get a righting bag. Practice, Practice.

I'm gonna make an assumption his Whisper mast is sealed (it's a relatively new cat)

This is an extremely light boat (Weight - 78Kg (excl foils)) - thats 172 lbs
He has a righting bag - and said it is not an issue with 2 adults

the sails on this boat may a large part of the issue. the head of the sail is a very (vry very) large square top - so once the head goes under, it will hold a ton of water in the sail, not to mention the
surface area effect that will keep it attached to the water

the T foils on the rudders are probably adding to the issue, and the dagger boards are very long - adding even more resistance to righting.

I think the only solution is a 10,000 calorie per day regiment for the son. beef that kid up!

Edited by MN3 on Oct 17, 2019 - 02:32 PM.
rch701

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Registered: Jul 06, 2009

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Posts: 395
Posted: Oct 17, 2019 - 03:46 PM

I have tied milk jugs or life jackets to the pin head and hoisted it. It will prevent turtling, buuuuttt so does drifting downwind. It will not make it easier to right the boat because the flotation doesn't start until the mast tip is several feet under.

--
FYC, Nacra 5.2 "Chris's Flyer" & Nacra Playcat & Farrier Tramp
Previously owned: Trac 14, H14, H16, H18, N5.0, G-cat 5.0
--
beavertailskiff

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Registered: Jun 18, 2019

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Posts: 13
Posted: Oct 20, 2019 - 10:04 PM

Go to Aquarius site and learn of hyfield shroud extending levers. For maybe couple hundred bucks you can solo right a 20 Footer. Here is supercat 17 https://youtu.be/JNs5TJ-2AGY
MN3

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Registered: Jun 20, 2006

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Posted: Oct 21, 2019 - 08:20 AM

beavertailskiffGo to Aquarius site and learn of hyfield shroud extending levers. For maybe couple hundred bucks you can solo right a 20 Footer. Here is supercat 17 https://youtu.be/JNs5TJ-2AGY

you need a captive mast to use this (or a way to secure your mast to the ball/base so it doesn't come off with slack in the shrouds)

not sure how the whisper mast attaches but when i googled it - there was a video of Martin under his boat
martin_langhoff

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Registered: Oct 26, 2016

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Posts: 233
Posted: Oct 21, 2019 - 12:28 PM

(-: caught me redhanded!

A standard Whisper rights easily solo with a 90Kg sailor. I've seen it. This particular Whisper has a slightly heavier mast than standard, and after much work the seal at the top is... 95% sealed, but still allows some in. For complicated reasons, it's hard to do better without some significant surgery.

The notes on this thread that the mast float only really works once the tip of the mast has sunk a bit is spot on, and I hadn't thought about that. That makes the exercise futile, I suspect.

We might try tower trapezing when capsized... https://49er.org/blog/tower-trapezing-outlawed/
badfish

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Registered: Jan 17, 2019

Last visit: Jan 13, 2020

Posts: 216
Posted: Oct 21, 2019 - 12:43 PM

QuoteWe might try tower trapezing when capsized...

Ok, but I don't think your 9 year old will support your weight.

--
Joshua

Texas Gulf Coast
'82 Prindle 16 (Badfish)
'02 Hobie Wave (Unnamed Project)
‘87 Hobie 18 (Sold)
‘89 Hobie 17 (ill-advised project boat, Sold)
--