Hello I am 16 years old and I race lasers and c-420’s competitively. I was thinking of getting into sailing cats (not for racing just for fun) I was looking on Craigslist and found a good looking super cat 19 for $1500. I would be sailing with some friends. Is this boat to powerful for a cat learner (combined weight in the boat would typically be around 300 lbs) here’s the link, https://madison.craigslist.org/boa/d/edgerton-19-supercat-catamaran-sailboat/7024992556.html
Edited by the420sailor on Dec 09, 2019 - 11:11 PM.
First catamaran supercat 19?
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Posted: Dec 09, 2019 - 12:08 PM
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Posted: Dec 09, 2019 - 12:20 PM
the biggest issue you will have with this boat is stepping and lowering the mast
they are very very heavy. there is little or no way you can do this solo
300 lbs is fine for light air but this boat is a beast in med-heavy air
I would not put this on the top of the list for a new cat sailor
esp not for younger sailors
don't get me wrong. it is duable but this is a big/ heavy cat
i would probably recommend a 16' cat for a young / new sailor -ymmv -
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Posted: Dec 09, 2019 - 02:52 PM
I don't understand the stock response of 'stepping and lowering' the mast. If the boat is on a trailer with a sturdy mast stand, add a winch and gin pole (or removable rear mast stand) and this should not be an issue. I raise my Tiger mast solo and my buddy does his 6.0. Although much lighter, my F16 is a bit trickier as it has to go up "backwards" due to the wing mast. Still do it solo and I am OLD.
As for the boat, getting it in and out of the water would be a consideration due to weight. If you don't have to cattrax it in up or down a hill by yourself, not an issue. Powerful sure but that means it would be fun! Last part of that is you need to be able to right it after you go over. 16, experienced sailor, friends .... you will go over.
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dk
Blade F-16
Hobie 14
Corsair F-242
Mirage 25 (Sold)
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Hobie Tiger (Sold)
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Posted: Dec 09, 2019 - 04:29 PM
Adding a gin pole doubles your rigging and break down time. most don't use one for that reason alone. plus they add a $200 to the cost of the boat, and they are a pita to get dialed in. they are actually very frustrating to use until dialed in. They also prohibit you from trailering your boat sterns facing the car - which is the biggest aid to reducing rigging time and solo stepping
"(or removable rear mast stand) " - good luck stepping this beast of a mast with just a stand
ever step a supercat mast? they are extremely heavy compared to most others beach cats and 2 of the 3 versions are 33' -
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Posted: Dec 09, 2019 - 05:49 PM
The first thing I want to say is "Dude, you're killing me". I just bought a 19 for $2200 and passed through Madison to get it from New York! Also, mine only came with the original sails and no tube on the trailer, so this looks like a great deal. If yours had been for sale a couple of months ago I would have snagged it in a heartbeat.
I'm just about as far into the weeds with this one as are you, but I have the advantage of almost 40 years of cat sailing behind me. Everybody talks a lot about how heavy the mast is; I'll have to wait until spring to step it for the first time and find out if it's harder than the H18's to raise. If so, it's gin pole and winch time, no big deal. As far as holding it down (I'm 200lb.), I expect a challenge solo, but with 300lb. a couple of experienced sailors (even if that experience isn't on cats) should be alright. But I expect we're both going to be in for some wild rides, from all accounts.
You also have the advantage of being dead close to the Supercats' home - Aquarius Sail in Wyoming MN. I made a point of dropping in en route home for a visit with Tom, and he's really a great guy.
Should you get it? If you're like me and like getting in a little over your head, hell yes.
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Southern Alberta and all over the damn place.
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1981 SuperCat 20 "Roberts' Rockets"
1983 SuperCat 19
TriFoiler #23 "Unfair Advantage"
Mystere 17
Unicorn A-Class (probably made by Trowbridge) that I couldn't resist rescuing at auction.
H18 & Zygal (classic) Tornado - stolen and destroyed - very unpleasant story.
Invitation and Mistral and Sunflower and windsurfers w/ Harken hydrofoils and god knows what else...
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Posted: Dec 09, 2019 - 08:14 PM
I have also recently got interested in beach cats. But I have a much different background than you. So here are some random thoughts on what I have learned since I got my Prindle 18-2,
I was able to raise my mast with one friend; but it was a lot bigger job than I expected. After some research using google I am working on a system to allow solo mast raising. While it is definitely possible to do it alone it requires a well designed system to do it along with a capable person doing it.
Which raised the question 'how/where will you be storing the boat and how often will you have to raise the mast; and will you have any help doing it'. The guy I bought the Prindle from kept it stored mast up near a ramp at a sailing club and it was a no brainer to launch it; as long as the person doing it could back up a trailer. On the other hand if you have to drive to an unfriendly launch site every time you sail and do everything alone that can be a problem.
Another thing to consider is the trailer. I basically had to scrap the trailer than came with mine and build a new one with some of the parts from it. Once I did that it was trivial to get the Prindle on and off the trailer; something that was quite hard with the original trailer; not to mention I am not convinced the original trailer was that roadworthy.
As mentioned earlier there are lots of cats/trailers that a single person can easily raise the mast and launch; not to mention sail solo or another person with ease. Don't take this to mean I am trying to talk you out of this boat. Even with little cat experience I suspect once in the water your previous sailing experience would allow you to sail the Super Cat. The thing is if you are going to get in trouble with beach cats all of them will flip if you push them too hard. Sure the Super Cat will flip easier than some of the more docile ones but don't expect any of the not to flip.
While I don't know all the details I suspect your parents will be somewhat involved with using their vehicles to tow any cat you buy; not to mention at 16 there may be legal issues with you buying a boat in your name. Again not insurmountable problems but they are things you will need to deal with.
While my experience has been with bigger boats conventional wisdom is that if someone asks a question 'should I buy this boat?' the answer is no; because the person needs to have enough knowledge to answer the question themselves. The thing is while this may, or may not, be a great deal there are always lots of boats for sale and good deals keep coming up. I suggest you look around the local beach cat scene, get to know folks there, and get up to speed that way. Not to mention that winter is upon us and I am not sure how much sailing you will be doing in your neck of the woods for the next few months. -
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Posted: Dec 09, 2019 - 11:13 PM
ok...from experience... 1st-you NEED a catamaran. Just awesome fun. That is, if its truly affordable for you.
My first is a beast-21SE. However, I knew I'd be in for figuring out how to engineer the handling of the extra weight, mast etc. Its Doable, however is more of a pain and more dangerous when it comes to rigging the gin pole and raising the 33 foot mast. I mean, its kind of hairy the thought of it dropping. Its heavy and hard to maneuver by hand to the point of impossible.
Do fun and kicking around, an 18 footer would do nicely and be way more manageable. Prindles would be on my short list as well: Like a 16. Not as much a fan of the hobie 14/16s, due to their potential to pitch pole and not carry much weight. But you and a friend or 2 would work and their super easy to handle on shore. Go a little lighter and you'll use it more and have more fun.
I absolutely LOVE my 21, but its a whole different world of weight and size management. Takes more time you would rather be sailing also.
Good luck and let us know what you do.
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Chuck C
NACRA 500 Mk2
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Posted: Dec 09, 2019 - 11:14 PM
Oh, I think the "if you're asking the question the answer is no" is a bit dismissive. I ask lots of questions that could go either way because I'm honestly looking for informed opinions in order to make the best choice.
First, I think we're all in agreement that the SC19 will be a real handful as a first cat. Like, no joke. As I said above, I've been doing this for a while, and I'm not at all certain I'll be able to handle it. But I've thought that before and found my way.
All this talk of masts and trailers and legality, though, is putting the cart before the horse. Do you want to get out there and kick ass? Because this is, from what I can tell, a boat to do it with (and that's why I bought one). You aren't going to know whether you have the chops, the weight, the desire, and the determination to do it until you try - while, of course, taking all reasonable safety precautions. Assuming you're not being unduly reckless, you're going to find out pretty quickly whether it's too much boat for you, and if it is you'll have a data point from which to trade down to something more manageable, assuming you still think cats are what you want to sail. If, after giving it a fair shot, you sell it in favour of something a little more modest, I'm certain you're not going to lose any money.
But please don't base a decision on or be deterred by incidental matters like bureaucracy, trailers, and mast stepping. They may be necessary, but they're not the sailing. If you love (and can handle) the ride, you'll figure out how to deal with that stuff.
Edited by jonathan162 on Dec 09, 2019 - 11:36 PM.
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Southern Alberta and all over the damn place.
*
1981 SuperCat 20 "Roberts' Rockets"
1983 SuperCat 19
TriFoiler #23 "Unfair Advantage"
Mystere 17
Unicorn A-Class (probably made by Trowbridge) that I couldn't resist rescuing at auction.
H18 & Zygal (classic) Tornado - stolen and destroyed - very unpleasant story.
Invitation and Mistral and Sunflower and windsurfers w/ Harken hydrofoils and god knows what else...
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Posted: Dec 10, 2019 - 06:07 AM
Go for it! Don't listen to those who are afraid of a challenge. I have been sailing beach cats since 1975 and I am now 75 years old and still sail. Some sailors get stuck on smaller cats and are missing out on some great sailing. A good sailor will know how to use all that power and how to depower when necessary. I have always found that the larger cats are truly more forgiving. When you are flying by all those other boats with that big smile you will know you made the right decision. -
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Posted: Dec 10, 2019 - 06:28 AM
My friend and I rig a Supercat 20 tall rig without a gin pole or mast support, I probably won't want to do it every weekend for the next decade but at the moment it is not horrible.
Not sure how many cats are in your area. If there is not a lot and the boat is in good shape, its a no brainer.
I do worry about parts, there is not a big used market and new is expensive. Certain things are not boat specific but the things that are are either hard to find or pricey. Not alot of used sails either and new will be expensive
I wouldn't worry about it being to much boat, you have some sailing experience and it is a boat you will not out grow. I know people that started with no sailing experience on a Prindle 19 and they didn't even blink and that is not a beginner boat by any means
Let us know how it goes -
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Posted: Dec 10, 2019 - 07:19 AM
Get the boat. -
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Posted: Dec 10, 2019 - 07:48 AM
Hell ya, buy it & sail it. Get a couple of strong friends to help the first times, til you figure things out. Sail in light to moderate winds to get the feel. Get a big righting bag, flip the boat near shore,(with some help handy), & find out what it takes to right.
If you sail Lasers competitively, you must be in decent shape, & know a bit about sailing.
My first cat was a Nacra 5.7, a hair under 19’. Great fun, & could be solo righted with a bag.
I also singled handed my Mystere 6.0XL, (20’), with a tramp launched spin. That thing was huge fun/fast, but, I couldn’t right it solo. That took the fun out, as I solo most of the time, there is often no other boats around & couldn’t get full power with only my 175lb.
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Posted: Dec 10, 2019 - 09:08 AM
I applaud you in wanting to step up.. I have two friends that have/had a Supercat 19. I had raced with my dad for 15 years before I got my first catamaran. At 16, I got a Nacra 5.8. I never had an issue with raising the mast. I was 195# so I didn't have an issue with strength. But, I hand raise and lower a Prindle 18-2 mast and a classic Tornado mast. There are ways to assist in raising and lowering easily. I use a 6' ladder for the mast tip. I take the trap lines and connect them to the front beam outside end to keep the mast from swaying side to side. You can make a pivot strut for the base of the mast to make the load easier (similar to F-Boats set up). I have designed many mast raising set-up for keel boats and catamarans. I don't believe lack of strength is any excuse.. get more clever in systems to work around that. I think after a few times on the water, you will find a way to keep the boat rigged where you can go out any time.. Once you go cat, you don't go back... PM me if you have further questions.
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Scott
Prindle Fleet 2
TCDYC
Prindle 18-2 Mod "FrankenKitty"
Tornado Classic "Fast Furniture"
Prindle 19 "Mr. Wiggly"
Nacra 5.8 "De ja vu"
Nacra 5.0
Nacra 5.8
Tornadoes (Reg White)
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Posted: Dec 10, 2019 - 09:33 AM
If you haven't yet, look at the "photo albums" section here. There is a Supercat section which includes rigging manuals. These boats were all designed with Highfield levers for extending the shrouds to enable solo righting without the need for extra tricks like bags. I may also have some stuff that hasn't yet been uploaded. As with the other guys, feel free to PM me.
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Southern Alberta and all over the damn place.
*
1981 SuperCat 20 "Roberts' Rockets"
1983 SuperCat 19
TriFoiler #23 "Unfair Advantage"
Mystere 17
Unicorn A-Class (probably made by Trowbridge) that I couldn't resist rescuing at auction.
H18 & Zygal (classic) Tornado - stolen and destroyed - very unpleasant story.
Invitation and Mistral and Sunflower and windsurfers w/ Harken hydrofoils and god knows what else...
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Posted: Dec 10, 2019 - 10:37 AM
I have sailed supercat 19's several times and a few times we capsized
even with extenders - 2 of us were not able to right it - we needed a 3rd person
i have sailed next to a very good skipper who capsized sc17's with extenders that the owner was not able to solo right and i had to anchor up and help
it is much more about experience and technique - the bigger and heavier the boat the more of both you need to safely sail
it's not as much about beach handling as it is about when things go bad on the water
I have seen this boat pummel the owner in pop up storms
Edited by MN3 on Dec 10, 2019 - 10:42 AM. -
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Posted: Dec 10, 2019 - 12:04 PM
Seems like a lot of boat to get started on, but definitely doable, especially with some initial help from someone experienced with the boat. Is mast up storage an option? I find my Prindle 19 mast to be too heavy for solo stepping, given my Don Knotts physique. And I've playing around with gin poles, but the loads scare me. I'm always afraid something is going to explode at any moment. I pay $84 a month for mast up storage, and only deal with the mast for annual inspection, or on the rare occasion I tow the boat to a different venue. And using a Soloright righting pole, I can right the boat solo. I'd never take a boat out solo without knowing I could right it
solo, or with crew knowing I could right it with crew.
Also, is this really that exceptional of a deal? I'm seeing what I first thought were exceptional deals out here in Kali. Sub $2000 prices for P19s, Nacra 5.8s, etc. So many that I don't think they are exceptional any more. Our boats are just getting cheap. I've got a Nacra 5.2 I picked up for $400, but I would have to put about $2000+ into it before it is sailable, and I don't think I'd get that for the boat.
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Bill Mattson
Prindle 19 "Gelli Bean"
Prindle 19 "Cat's Pajamas"
Nacra 5.2 (Will sail her a bit and let her name herself)
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Posted: Dec 10, 2019 - 07:14 PM
I would suggest that you wait until spring when 'boats for sale' are plenty. To get that good deal, you need cash in hand and be ready to buy. Don't be afraid to look outside your immediate area. An easy weekend trip could net you the difference between a good deal and a great one. Buy one that can get on the water immediately. Fixer uppers can be frustrating and more costly than originally estimated.
Last suggestion ... buy yourself a spinnaker boat. Young sailor with friends and a spinnaker boat is a recipe for fun!! Find your self an older F18 that may be a little tired but everything functional. It is something you can grow into and won't need to sell it after the first summer because you are bored.
As for the rest of it, a clever system can get you on the water solo without issue. I rig my Tiger solo all three sails (jib stays on the furler and rudders stay on the boat) in just under 1 hr. Two coordinated sailors could cut that time almost in half. Enjoy the cat sailing.
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dk
Blade F-16
Hobie 14
Corsair F-242
Mirage 25 (Sold)
Hobie Tiger (Sold)
Hobie Tiger (Sold)
TomCat 6.2 (Sold)
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Posted: Dec 11, 2019 - 08:17 AM
The Supercat 19 would be a great spin boat. It is very simple to add a chute. I had chutes on my Nacra 5.8s, Prindle 19, Tornado (original classic), Nacra 5.0.
Don't buy into the thought that you have to have a F18 to have a spin boat. Go with your budget. A stock boat will keep you going for years. I have been running spins on cats since '90 and my current modified 18-2 is main and jib and in breeze I can pace with F18s.
More importantly, Keep It Simple.... I know several guys getting out of F18s and going to H-16s and H-18s because they can get on the water faster and have more sail time.
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Scott
Prindle Fleet 2
TCDYC
Prindle 18-2 Mod "FrankenKitty"
Tornado Classic "Fast Furniture"
Prindle 19 "Mr. Wiggly"
Nacra 5.8 "De ja vu"
Nacra 5.0
Nacra 5.8
Tornadoes (Reg White)
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Posted: Dec 11, 2019 - 10:23 AM
+1
the loads are very high - i never enjoy being around gin poles in use
+1
many sailors (esp cat sailors) get in over their head and lose interest in the sport entirely
IMHO - start out with an easy to sail boat, then upgrade to one with more controls and complexity as your skills and desire to sail faster grows
Edited by MN3 on Dec 11, 2019 - 10:30 AM. -
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Posted: Dec 11, 2019 - 06:18 PM
Skip the gin pole and use a 6' step ladder if you are worried. It will raise the mast to an angle that you can crank up the mast straight from the mast stand winch; simple.
I didn't say a spinnaker boat had to be an F18. However, the class has been around long enough that you can find 'tired' but functional boats for a decent price. Most of them will come with and are engineered to fly main, jib and spinnaker. You worry about gin pole loads. I worry about loads on boats that weren't designed to carry "add on" equipment.
Skip the starter boat! I often sail my Tiger solo and not rig the spinnaker. Since the jib is on a furler, that makes it even easier or I just leave it rolled up. I have yet to rig the jib on my F16 and main/spinnaker configuration is why I bought the boat. My F16 main alone has the same number of lines as my Hobie 14. It doesn't get any simpler than that.
All that said, if you have the funds, a multiple boat program works the best.
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dk
Blade F-16
Hobie 14
Corsair F-242
Mirage 25 (Sold)
Hobie Tiger (Sold)
Hobie Tiger (Sold)
TomCat 6.2 (Sold)
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