Hi,
After sailing a Laser for a few years I am looking at getting a beach catamaran for more speed and excitement with the ability to sail solo or with a friends in both light and heavy winds. There is no racing or local fleets on my lake in Montana, so it will be mostly for "fun." Initially I was planning on getting a used Hobie 16 because of the price and availability to learn solo trapezing and the basics of cat sailing. After combing the internet and talking to some local sailors I am concerned that this will be a dated pitch pole torture device that can't point or tack and is bad in light winds.
Since then I started looking hard at F16's. I'm attracted by more modern hull designs and the flexibility to rig it with a main, main+spinnaker, and main+jib+spin. There does seem to be an opinion that the boat isn't actually that good at solo sailing and is too much of a handful solo when the winds gets "up." Just curios what everyone opinion was on this. Is it only a handful if raced solo, and can be cruised under the main only during big winds easily? Or should I be looking at something else (Nacra 5.0 or 5.2, Prindle 16's, A-cat, another look at a Hobie 16, etc...)
Thanks everyone.
F16....good starter for solo and crew?
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Posted: Aug 30, 2021 - 04:13 PM
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Posted: Aug 30, 2021 - 08:33 PM
My F16 Blade is overall, the best catamaran I have owned or sailed on. It checks a lot of boxes that other boats can't. That said, if you have a particular need like sailing with a crew of 3 then no on the F16 and yes on a H21 or something similar. Especially since there is no one design racing, skip the H16 and look for an F16.
I sail my Blade solo all the time main only or main + spinnaker (raced this weekend actually). You likely were not talking to an F16 owner about being a handful. Stepping down from an F18 eliminates that issue. The boat is fast, light, super fun and easy to handle (on and off the water). My sailing buddy also owns a Blade. Unfortunately, we are not small guys. However, when we sail the boat two up there is very little change in performance. Do we go out on one boat when it is blowing 6 knts .. no but when it is blowing 15knts ... yahoo!
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dk
Blade F-16
Hobie 14
Corsair F-242
Mirage 25 (Sold)
Hobie Tiger (Sold)
Hobie Tiger (Sold)
TomCat 6.2 (Sold)
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Posted: Aug 30, 2021 - 10:15 PM
Thanks. Good to hear you don’t find the F16 overpowered easily when soloed. The other boat I have been looking at is the Nacra 500. Looks like it can handle the heavy stuff a little better, but more of a dog in light wind. Not worrying about dagger boards on the lake is also a bonus. -
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Posted: Aug 31, 2021 - 06:39 AM
Somewhere between a Nacra 5.0 and an F16 is pretty much the whole spectrum. I wouldn't rule out a Hobie 16, best chance of finding one in your area in decent condition at a good price and can give you a chance to make sure you are a cat man. If you have made up your mind about modern hull design and spinnaker, f16 is probably a good choice, I don't sail them but there are some on my beach that don't hesitate to go out solo. Daggerboards are something to think about, I find them a handful when solo. -
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Posted: Aug 31, 2021 - 07:28 AM
I owned a Nacra 500 for ten years. I never considered it a "dog" in light winds. True, it has less sail area than a H16 but it's faster, boomless, more forgiving and easier to set up. I know because I've sailed the H16 plenty of times. If you're alone you'll appreciate the N500 when the whitecaps start forming. And who enjoys sailing a cat in really light air anyway? The most comfortable place to be is on the wire.
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Bill Townsend
G-Cat 5.0
Sarasota
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Posted: Aug 31, 2021 - 08:02 AM
. I grew up just across the border from Montana, we used to spend considerable time skiing at Whitefish, & summering on the big lake near Kalispel. Don’t know which lake you are on, couple of things to consider.
Will you store mast up on a beach, pointed into prevailing wind?
Both my H18 & Dart 15 can be a bear to raise the sail & get it hooked if the wind is blowing it over to the shroud. Getting it down in a strong wind, & not aligned is a bear & its mother.
The legacy Nacras (our 5.0 & 5.7), using the ball on the wire, can be raised & lowered without a hitch, no matter where the wind is.
What are your beaching conditions like?
The F 16’s are necessarily fairly lightly built. You don’t want to be dragging or running those hulls on gravel.
The skeg hulled Nacra has quite a bit of meat on the bottom edge.
Does your lake have obstructions- shoals, rocks, logs?
You definitely do not want to contact anything but water with long thin blades poking below the hull.
The very simple design of the Nacra is a real +, especially for a new cat sailor. If you are constantly carrying friends, who don’t know a mast from a sail, simple is better. We often sail the 5.0 with two adults, it’s great in 15+ mph wind, but yes, that boat is slower in light winds. You really have to drive it hard to pitchpole, you can drive the bows right under, til water is shooting off the front beam, & it will recover if you release some sheet,
However, if you are comfortable with the extra spaghetti of a spin, boards, etc, the F16 is a great boat, solo or two up. I’ve only sailed one a few times, & still regret not driving all the way to Maryland 10 years ago to buy a well equipped Blade 16.
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Hobie 18 Magnum
Dart 15
Mystere 6.0XL Sold Was a handful solo
Nacra 5.7
Nacra 5.0
Bombardier Invitation (Now officially DEAD)
Various other Dock cluttering WaterCrap
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Posted: Aug 31, 2021 - 08:35 AM
Questions like this come up all the time, and there's really no way to give good answers without more information; the devil is in the details as they say. Each boat has it's pros and cons, and each sailor has their preferences. (That's why many of us have more than one cat and/or mono and/or windsurfer in the stable.) Sometimes those preferences are simply what we are used to/comfortable with, not necessarily what's "best." Most beachcat sailors seem to love their boats, and many have bad opinions about other boats. Sometimes those opinions are unfounded and not well-informed.
It might help you get better suggestions if we knew some things like:
What do you and "friend" weigh?
Do you expect to sail with "friend" often or seldom?
Will you be trailering for each sail or have mast-up storage? (i.e., what's your rigging time/hassle tolerance?)
What's your launching area like....ramp, beach, sandy, rocky?
How big is the lake?
What do the "local sailors" sail?
What's your budget?
For the record, I love my H16. I haven't pitchpoled in ~15 years. (H16s don't pitchpole skippers; skippers pitchpole H16s!) I may not point as well as a board boat, but I enjoy the boardless simplicity. I can rig it (including raising/lowering mast), move it around on the beach, sail it, and right it solo. For me personally, it would be "torture" if I had to deal with all that spinnaker rigging, especially if trailering for each sail.
If I were going to move to a bigger boat, it would either be a Nacra 5.7/570 or a Prindle 18 (with MX sailplan).
Good luck with your endeavor, man....oh, and don't believe everything you read on the internet!!
Edited by rattlenhum on Aug 31, 2021 - 09:32 AM.
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Jerome Vaughan
Hobie 16
Clinton, Mississippi
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Posted: Aug 31, 2021 - 10:45 AM
Thanks for all the great input. I’ll certainly not rule out a hobby 16. To give a little more input:
-We sail on a pretty large lake (Canyon Ferry 30 miles x 5 miles) and will leave the boat on mixed sandy & rocky beach which it will be launched from.
-Likely 75% solo sailing and 25% 2 up. My solo weight is 190lbs and crew weight will range from 70lbs-200lbs. No racing, but it will likely be used daily in the summer months. Something fun to do with the kids and friends, but also alone when it’s time to decompress and blast across the lake.
-Local sailors are mostly ‘older’ adults on keel boats that cruise under both sail and motor. Budget is pretty flexible, really, really not looking for a project boat.
Hope that helps a little. -
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Posted: Aug 31, 2021 - 02:24 PM
I think the F16 is a very solid option. You will want to spend time with fixes, tweaks and technique in making sure you can right it solo. We race against a Viper F16 in our fleet, and it looks like a solid fun boat.
Out in Sailing Anarchy we're having a similar topic, the same question was asked about the Nacra 15 as solo/double boat - https://forums.sailingana…r-17s-as-single-handers/
I sprung for an N15 with foiling kit, notes here https://forums.sailingana…54-nacra-15-fcs-for-fun/ -
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Posted: Aug 31, 2021 - 03:20 PM
The great thing about an F16 is you only have to rig as much as you want to sail. This weekend I was faster upwind than a H17, H20 and an I20 while sailing under main alone. In that configuration, it is easier to rig than a H16 so no "torture" involved. That said, taking the extra time to rig the spinnaker gets paid off in spades in a good breeze ... so much fun.
As far as boards, I am set up to raise the boards to mid-height from either side of the boat. My boards weigh next to nothing. Pulling them and laying them under the hiking straps is an easy one hand job even while sailing.
If you are on a sandy/rocky beach, cat trax would be a must for any boat. The club we raced at this weekend didn't have a beach like I am used to. They had a floating hook moored out in knee deep water. We came in, hooked up and grabbed the wheels without worrying about the boat. The best part is my boat weighs 240#s and could pull it out easily by myself (and I am an old guy). More boxes checked.
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dk
Blade F-16
Hobie 14
Corsair F-242
Mirage 25 (Sold)
Hobie Tiger (Sold)
Hobie Tiger (Sold)
TomCat 6.2 (Sold)
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Posted: Sep 01, 2021 - 11:05 AM
I've got a competitive F16 for sale ready to sail with a basic trailer, beach wheels, cover, etc in South Carolina.
https://www.thebeachcats.…viper-sale-or-trade.html
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Mac
Midlands South Carolina
AHPC Viper USA 366
A Cat USA 366
Super Cat 17
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Posted: Sep 01, 2021 - 11:45 AM
Performance numbers don’t mean much if you’re out sailing by yourself. Any cat will feel fast until you encounter a faster one.
My wife and I had the most fun “just sailing” on the H18 and getaway. I regret selling both.
That said a modern F16 like the Viper mentioned above are nice boats. They pack a lot of features into a package that is reasonable to move on the ground solo. The rigging on them is very clean, hardly a spaghetti mess.
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Greenville SC
Offering sails and other go fast parts for A-class catamarans
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Posted: Sep 01, 2021 - 10:03 PM
Thanks for letting know about your F 16. It looks great, I just wish it was a little closer to the mountain west.
I’m still really torn between the F 16 catamaran and the NARCA 500. I like NARCA 500 as a starter catamaran because it’s slightly under canvassed and the lack of dagger boards I think will help simplify things when soloing. I worry a little bit that the F16 will be too much of a pure bred racer but having the flexibility to sail under the main only or the main in spinnaker will let me progress as my experience increases. -
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Posted: Sep 01, 2021 - 10:32 PM
The Nacra 500 Sport does come with a spinnaker kit. That said, I don't consider the F16 a pure bred racer. It is just a light, fast, fun boat.
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dk
Blade F-16
Hobie 14
Corsair F-242
Mirage 25 (Sold)
Hobie Tiger (Sold)
Hobie Tiger (Sold)
TomCat 6.2 (Sold)
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Posted: Sep 02, 2021 - 06:40 AM
One thing about the N500 that I forgot to mention. The jib is tiny and you can sail with just the main and it doesn't seem to affect the balance that much. You can't sail a H16 with just main. It's more frustrating to not want to go out because there's too much wind rather than light air. Keep in mind that any more than two is a crowd on a 16 ft boat but the N500 is a great single hander. If you're beach launching by yourself I would rule out anything with boards. If the wind's onshore, witch it usually is, you'll be walking the boat out at least far enough to get the boards down partially and if it's rough and waves come you'll have to be quick, jump on, get your rudders and boards situated and bear off a little so you can make headway. If waves come and push you backwards and your rudders are down the results may not be pretty.
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Bill Townsend
G-Cat 5.0
Sarasota
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Posted: Sep 02, 2021 - 10:05 AM
I think the rudders down, pushed back issue would apply to any cat.
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dk
Blade F-16
Hobie 14
Corsair F-242
Mirage 25 (Sold)
Hobie Tiger (Sold)
Hobie Tiger (Sold)
TomCat 6.2 (Sold)
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Posted: Sep 02, 2021 - 10:43 AM
The point I was trying to make is when you're alone it is much harder to get going off the beach when there are waves. Legacy beach cats were truly beach cats, boardless. There is a technique for getting away from the beach with a boardless cat with your rudders up as long as the waves aren't too big. With the main out all the way against the shrouds and the jib sheeted in you can make progress to weather with the rudders up. You've essentially changed the center of effort so much that the boat is balanced without the rudders, and with a little bit of practice you actually steer by bringing the main in or out. I have done this many times starting in really shallow water where I couldn't possibly use my rudders.
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Bill Townsend
G-Cat 5.0
Sarasota
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Posted: Sep 02, 2021 - 10:43 AM
Thats really helpful to know that the N500 sails well without a jib. I really like the idea going out solo with just the main and spinnaker. I think the boards are what worries me with the F16. Is the hassle worth the speed and low wind fun? In a racing situation I think for sure. But as the kids grow into the boat, or I want a fun twilight cruise, maybe not? I even thought about switching the "long boards" for stubby beater boards for casual use. Anyone ever do that with their dagger board cats?
Also, there seems to be a lot more used F16's available vs Nacra 500. Though it looks like NACRA is coming out with the 500 Mk2 pretty soon.....maybe people will be looking to upgrade (or the Mk2 will be so "amazing" I'll want to buy new)? -
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Posted: Sep 02, 2021 - 11:30 AM
There isn't anyone that won't concede that boardless boats are simplier by the fact there are less parts. If your sailing area just isn't condusive to a board boat, I get it. However, making board boats sound like they are so laborious that they are almost not worth having is getting a bit old. 98% of the time, it just isn't true.
My rudders are adjustable from either side of the boat so I can get off the beach without issue. The interesting thing is that I remember having a harder time leaving with the shore with my H14 (the original beach cat (?)) than I ever have had with my F16.
I own them both, I sail them both ... they both have a place. If you can't own multiple boats then take in all the opinions and information, assess your sailing style, needs and area then take the plunge. Worse than arguing about what is the best boat is not getting out there at all.
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dk
Blade F-16
Hobie 14
Corsair F-242
Mirage 25 (Sold)
Hobie Tiger (Sold)
Hobie Tiger (Sold)
TomCat 6.2 (Sold)
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Posted: Sep 02, 2021 - 01:09 PM
Yup....that's sorta how I feel about all the H16 pitchpoling torture device posts!
True dat!
You've gotten a lot of valuable info, breaqnaway, and you have several options that can meet your criteria. It would be better if you could hang out with some other catsailors and try out some different boats, but it sounds like that's unlikely. Keep in mind that, if you get a decent boat at a fair price and take reasonable care of it, it shouldn't depreciate much for resale. You shouldn't be out much if you decide catsailing just isn't your bag...or you decide to upgrade to a carbon, foiling, 20+ footer!
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Jerome Vaughan
Hobie 16
Clinton, Mississippi
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