Hobie 16 increasing mast rake :: Catamaran Sailboats at TheBeachcats.com

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Hobie 16 increasing mast rake

waiex191

Rank: Mate

Registered: Oct 07, 2020

Last visit: Feb 29, 2024

Posts: 359
Posted: Oct 13, 2021 - 09:47 PM

Hey all,
I'd like to try increasing my mast rake a bit. I've been reading up on it and it seems that it offers some benefits - one of which is being less prone to pitch poling. Currently I've got the forestay on the loosest position on the bridle, and I've got a double adjuster with a bungee on it:

Any reason why I can't just jam another adjuster in there? Or any other tricks to try? Can I use a piece of line? What is the long term rake adjustment - new rigging?

Thanks!

--
Bryan in Poplar Grove, IL
Supercat 17, unknown year. Future project
Hobie 16, 1977 - died a spectacular death https://youtu.be/Y7O22bp2MVA
Hobie 16, 1978 - current boat
--
carl2

Rank: Mate

Registered: Oct 13, 2003

Last visit: Sep 05, 2024

Posts: 111
Posted: Oct 14, 2021 - 07:38 AM

Yes, new forestay, new mast base for mast and crossbeam so that the mast rotation stops meet. And, Jib is cut different,
You can recut and sew your jib and put a new clew on it, someone on here or on another site... https://www.hobie.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=51014 overlayed the modern jib to.the old one, looked like a new angle across the bottom of jib to allow it to fit crossbar when mast rakes back. Might be easier to get the right jib..plus main sail might be cut different... not sure
also increasing mast rake will increase rudder helm, the newer hobies have adjustable rudder rake so you can increase the rudder rake to decrease weatherhelm.. the old way to do this was move the hole in the rudder.. tricky to get right.. I had my guys in the machine shop duplicate the new style adjusters into my old castings (easy to do since my son's 16 had the new style) for the rudders.. or you can scour ebay for the newer adjustable rudder castings.. also the seaway blocks are'nt the best for maximum rake so I replaced mine with a used set of harken 6:1.. sometimes you can find a deal

Edited by carl2 on Oct 14, 2021 - 08:46 AM.
waiex191

Rank: Mate

Registered: Oct 07, 2020

Last visit: Feb 29, 2024

Posts: 359
Posted: Oct 14, 2021 - 09:19 AM

Thanks carl2, it is starting to sound like a slippery slope!

--
Bryan in Poplar Grove, IL
Supercat 17, unknown year. Future project
Hobie 16, 1977 - died a spectacular death https://youtu.be/Y7O22bp2MVA
Hobie 16, 1978 - current boat
--
shortyfox

Rank: Mate

Registered: Apr 07, 2017

Posts: 367
Posted: Oct 14, 2021 - 10:33 AM

Increasing the mast rake a just small amount won't require all the changes that Carl2 mentioned. You'll just have to lengthen the forestay and there are many ways to do that. If the boat is already balanced with the desired weather helm, don't do it. It will also lower your boom clearance which isn't very much on a H16 to begin with. It will slightly change the sheeting angle of the jib, you may have to use a different hole on the clew plate to compensate. As far as pitch-poling goes, a small change won't make that much difference when the boat is sailed properly. Murray's used to sell these anti-pitch pole foils which look very easy to install. They may still sell them and I'd be very curious to hear from someone who's tried them.

--
Bill Townsend
G-Cat 5.0
Sarasota
--
waiex191

Rank: Mate

Registered: Oct 07, 2020

Last visit: Feb 29, 2024

Posts: 359
Posted: Oct 14, 2021 - 12:25 PM

shortyfoxMurray's used to sell these anti-pitch pole foils which look very easy to install. They may still sell them and I'd be very curious to hear from someone who's tried them.

They still sell them - $163.
https://www.murrays.com/product/01-3240/

Joyrider TV did a review on them:
https://youtu.be/8k0zpRec7Ho

I'm in the process of making a set:

Thanks Bill for that feedback.

--
Bryan in Poplar Grove, IL
Supercat 17, unknown year. Future project
Hobie 16, 1977 - died a spectacular death https://youtu.be/Y7O22bp2MVA
Hobie 16, 1978 - current boat
--
carl2

Rank: Mate

Registered: Oct 13, 2003

Last visit: Sep 05, 2024

Posts: 111
Posted: Oct 14, 2021 - 12:25 PM

love this guy.. :)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l_sZj60wtZI
waiex191

Rank: Mate

Registered: Oct 07, 2020

Last visit: Feb 29, 2024

Posts: 359
Posted: Oct 14, 2021 - 12:28 PM

Quotelove this guy.. :)

Oh yeah, I've watched Joe's mast rake video. That was what got the gears turning. Here it is as a clickable link:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l_sZj60wtZI

--
Bryan in Poplar Grove, IL
Supercat 17, unknown year. Future project
Hobie 16, 1977 - died a spectacular death https://youtu.be/Y7O22bp2MVA
Hobie 16, 1978 - current boat
--
rattlenhum

Rank: Mate

Registered: Aug 01, 2002

Last visit: Sep 14, 2024

Posts: 425
Posted: Oct 16, 2021 - 08:19 AM

Hold on...wait a minute....back up!

On the H16, the forestay has nothing to do with setting mast rake. Rake is set by pinning higher (forward rake) or lower (aft rake) on the shrouds. This limits how far forward the mast can go when the jib halyard (whole rig actually) is tightened (and the forestay goes slack). When pinned lower on the shrouds, the forestay does have to be long enough to connect to the bridle when stepping the mast. If yours isn't long enough with two adjusters, it's not an H16 forestay.

In practice, you aren't going to be able to rake very far back on an older boat with stretched sails and a 5:1 mainsheet. When sheeted hard with max aft rake, the mainblocks should be just shy of block to block. Any further aft and you'll go block to block before tightening the mainsail. Newer H16s (like Joe's in the vid) have a low profile 6:1 mainsheet system and the lower block is pinned directly to the traveler (no shackle)...all to reduce the block stack height.

Raking aft also requires that the jib be pinned higher at the tack; otherwise, the jib goes block to block before getting tight, too. (There are ways to reduce that stack height as well.)

As mentioned above, newer H16s have features (different mast base/step, cut of jib, etc.) to allow more aft rake, and raking aft does put more pressure on the rudders. That's why top racers have EPO3 blades that cost ~$500 a pop.

It should also be mentioned that aft rake will make the boat suck downwind in lighter air.

The anti-pitchpole foils have been around forever....no one uses them, and that vid isn't very convincing. Here are some other mitigative measures to try when sailing off the wind in heavier air:
Get your weight as far back as possible. Crew should trap out behind/straddling skipper. If double trapped, crews rear foot should be between skippers feet.
When sailing a beam reach, start with traveling the jib out half way. It there's too much pressure on the bows (pitching threat), travel it out all the way. In even bigger air, you can travel the main out further, too, to reduce heeling and pitching.
On a broad reach, the main should be sheeted a little harder/flatter than for lighter air, and you need to push the boat farther downwind the harder it's blowing (and as you feel a gust coming). The objective is to stall the mainsail a little (or be on the verge of stalling) which keeps the boat flat and minimizes the leeward bow digging.

--
Jerome Vaughan
Hobie 16
Clinton, Mississippi
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waiex191

Rank: Mate

Registered: Oct 07, 2020

Last visit: Feb 29, 2024

Posts: 359
Posted: Oct 17, 2021 - 11:27 PM

Thanks Jerome! I have my stays 3 holes from the bottom. That's as far down as I can go before my forestay won't pin to the bridle adjuster. Initially we had the stays higher and were able to pin to a single bridle adjuster. So maybe it is stock, and we have it back as far as it will go?

We are working on getting our weight further back. We are still beginners on the trapeze. I've put some neoprene on the aft hulls, so we can put one foot back there. I had some leftover after we did the rail rugs.

--
Bryan in Poplar Grove, IL
Supercat 17, unknown year. Future project
Hobie 16, 1977 - died a spectacular death https://youtu.be/Y7O22bp2MVA
Hobie 16, 1978 - current boat
--
shortyfox

Rank: Mate

Registered: Apr 07, 2017

Posts: 367
Posted: Oct 18, 2021 - 01:18 PM

There's no set rule for this. Take your boat out and see how it feels and then make the changes.

There sure has been a lot of discussion about pitch poling. Why do you think someone invented those anti- pitch pole devices? It's because H16's pitch pole! So I'm going to repeat myself at the risk of raising the ire of die hard H16 fans. Bryan, you seem like a resourceful guy. That being said, turn some of your energy into rebuilding that SC17 of yours. The volume of those hulls will make pitch poling a non- issue not to mention many other attributes the SC17 has. Try to imagine a day with whitecaps and two people on the wire and a third person driving the boat. You can do that in the SC17.

--
Bill Townsend
G-Cat 5.0
Sarasota
--
waiex191

Rank: Mate

Registered: Oct 07, 2020

Last visit: Feb 29, 2024

Posts: 359
Posted: Oct 18, 2021 - 03:04 PM

shortyfoxThat being said, turn some of your energy into rebuilding that SC17 of yours.

This project is on the docket for this winter... I promise!

--
Bryan in Poplar Grove, IL
Supercat 17, unknown year. Future project
Hobie 16, 1977 - died a spectacular death https://youtu.be/Y7O22bp2MVA
Hobie 16, 1978 - current boat
--
texastuma

Rank: Mate

Registered: Nov 22, 2012

Last visit: Nov 20, 2024

Posts: 410
Posted: Oct 18, 2021 - 03:56 PM

waiex191
shortyfoxThat being said, turn some of your energy into rebuilding that SC17 of yours.

This project is on the docket for this winter... I promise!

Before you go out and buy or modify your forestay, grab a piece of 1/8" dyneema and use that to get your shrouds to the max rake position. Do keep in mind that if you rake it back too much, the rudders will load up too much and could cause other issues. There is a point of too much. I would say try it and experiment. What's the worst that can happen? That is basically how we all got here; experimented and succeeded or failed.

--
Scott

Prindle Fleet 2
TCDYC

Prindle 18-2 Mod "FrankenKitty"
Tornado Classic "Fast Furniture"
Prindle 19 "Mr. Wiggly"
Nacra 5.8 "De ja vu"
Nacra 5.0
Nacra 5.8
Tornadoes (Reg White)
--
rattlenhum

Rank: Mate

Registered: Aug 01, 2002

Last visit: Sep 14, 2024

Posts: 425
Posted: Oct 19, 2021 - 08:14 AM

waiex191Thanks Jerome! I have my stays 3 holes from the bottom. That's as far down as I can go before my forestay won't pin to the bridle adjuster. Initially we had the stays higher and were able to pin to a single bridle adjuster. So maybe it is stock, and we have it back as far as it will go?

Back to your original question, it won't hurt anything to add another adjuster to the forestay. Alternatively, after stepping the mast with the stays pinned higher, have you crew pull the mast to one side and hold it down there while you pin down further on that side. (Crew can't let up or mast may fall!) Repeat on other side. I expect you can go down at least one hole and probably two. On many non-H16 beachcats the mast has to be raised/lowered with the shrouds loose, then rig tension is set this way (because it's not controlled by the jib halyard like on the H16).

Personally, I would advise against adding a piece of cheater line. If out in some s#!$ and the jib halyard breaks, the rig will get really loose and bang around like crazy...and that cheater will be the only thing holding the mast up.

Just keep in mind that the forestay has nothing to do with setting mast rake on the H16. It's only there to hold the mast up until the jib is rigged or if the jib halyard breaks....otherwise it should be slack.

I've sailed on a lot of other beachcats, too, and had lots of fun on them. They all have pros/cons...things I like/dislike about them. With its rockered hulls and low bow volume, the H16 is certainly more prone to pitchpole than some of the other designs. However, it wouldn't still be the largest racing class in the world if it were the pitchpole death machine that one might think from reading stuff on the interweb. It seems apparent to me that a lot of those type comments come from folks who do not know how to rig/sail the boat properly (it does have some unique features). I really don't consider myself to be a die-hard H16 guy, but I do chime in when I see comments with which I disagree. And I am not trying to knock anyone personally. Heck, I'd have no idea how to set up and sail your SC17....but I'll bet I could pitchpole it in 15 knots...even if you fabbed some anti-pitchpole foils for it!

Edited by rattlenhum on Oct 19, 2021 - 08:17 AM.

--
Jerome Vaughan
Hobie 16
Clinton, Mississippi
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