Home made H16 anti-pitchpole bow planes :: Catamaran Sailboats at TheBeachcats.com

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Home made H16 anti-pitchpole bow planes

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MN3

Rank: Master Chief

Registered: Jun 20, 2006

Last visit: May 22, 2024

Posts: 7089
Posted: Nov 27, 2021 - 11:11 AM

QuoteSorry to say, but they will not help much against pitchpoling, only added volume will. What will happen when you nose dive and the angle of the metall gets below horizontal, is that you get a quicker somersault.

I agree with this
they may add a small bit resistance to pitching but the second you get them underwater they will increase the velocity in which you fly through the air

Quotewhat is the airspeed velocity of an unladen sailor?

plus the added risk of injury to anyone on land or water that get in the way

as mentioned above, if these really worked - they would be on every h16

better off learning how to avoid and recover from an near pitch - but easier said than done for sure

after a few seasons (or pitchpoles) you may want to up your volume with a different boat -

BUT if these work for you, and you don't slice anyone or anything in 1/2 - enjoy!!
waiex191

Rank: Mate

Registered: Oct 07, 2020

Last visit: Feb 29, 2024

Posts: 359
Posted: Nov 27, 2021 - 01:39 PM

MN3
QuoteSorry to say, but they will not help much against pitchpoling, only added volume will. What will happen when you nose dive and the angle of the metall gets below horizontal, is that you get a quicker somersault.

I agree with this
they may add a small bit resistance to pitching but the second you get them underwater they will increase the velocity in which you fly through the air

I think any increase in velocity from our first two pitchpoles would require the bows to be pulled backwards.

I am curious as to the root cause of our tendency to pitchpole. I am sure a lot of it is lack of skill. I also wonder if we are too heavy for the boat. We have an all-up crew weight of 400 lbs, and we have a heavy boat with a 101lb port hull and 85 lbs to starboard. More flotation would be good, but I would think less weight would have a similar effect. Once we are confident enough to solo it will be interesting to see if we do a better job of keeping the bows out of the water.

revintageSorry to say, but they will not help much against pitchpoling, only added volume will.

They surely helped on that last trip! Definitely kept the bows from submerging all the way.

wxguyIf these worked, every H16 would have them on the bows.

mikekrantzRudder winglets would be more effective and less dangerous.

I'd assume wxguy's statement would apply to rudder winglets as well.

MN3after a few seasons (or pitchpoles) you may want to up your volume with a different boat

I just asked Tom Haberman for a quote to replace my standing rigging on the SC17. It's time.

--
Bryan in Poplar Grove, IL
Supercat 17, unknown year. Future project
Hobie 16, 1977 - died a spectacular death https://youtu.be/Y7O22bp2MVA
Hobie 16, 1978 - current boat
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revintage

Rank: Mate

Registered: Aug 13, 2017

Last visit: Aug 22, 2024

Posts: 281
Posted: Nov 27, 2021 - 04:40 PM

What about moving the weight back of the H16, might solve the pitchpole-problem ?

Edited by revintage on Nov 27, 2021 - 05:06 PM.

--
Brgds
Lars

Frankentri 5.8/5.5/Inter20
Aerow trimaran foiler

https://www.facebook.com/groups/1192604934176635
--
waiex191

Rank: Mate

Registered: Oct 07, 2020

Last visit: Feb 29, 2024

Posts: 359
Posted: Nov 27, 2021 - 05:20 PM

revintageWhat about moving the weight back of the H16, might solve the pitchpole-problem ?Edited by revintage on Nov 27, 2021 - 05:06 PM.

Excellent point, and you may have noticed in the latest video I posted that I was helming from inside the rail. That would let my son on the trapeze move all the way to the back easily. I had also put some neoprene on the aft hull so in theory you could step down there and get your weight further back. But for going upwind, my understanding is we need weight more forward for the hulls to act as the daggerboard. Early on we were super far back and were sinking the sterns. I assume this is no good either.

--
Bryan in Poplar Grove, IL
Supercat 17, unknown year. Future project
Hobie 16, 1977 - died a spectacular death https://youtu.be/Y7O22bp2MVA
Hobie 16, 1978 - current boat
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revintage

Rank: Mate

Registered: Aug 13, 2017

Last visit: Aug 22, 2024

Posts: 281
Posted: Nov 27, 2021 - 05:31 PM

Good point, Bryan!

Edited by revintage on Nov 27, 2021 - 05:32 PM.

--
Brgds
Lars

Frankentri 5.8/5.5/Inter20
Aerow trimaran foiler

https://www.facebook.com/groups/1192604934176635
--
shortyfox

Rank: Mate

Registered: Apr 07, 2017

Last visit: Nov 21, 2024

Posts: 367
Posted: Nov 28, 2021 - 07:18 AM

Quote But for going upwind, my understanding is we need weight more forward for the hulls to act as the daggerboard.

You are exactly right. Especially true with board less cats, the more the leeward hull is buried the more resistance to leeway. In lighter airs it's still more efficient to induce heeling and only have drag from one hull. Monohulls can always point higher, ever notice how when your windward hull starts to leave the water you can point higher? Another thing about the Hobie16, it has asymmetrical hulls which pull towards each other when the boat is sailed flat, you always want the windward hull just "kissing" the water.

--
Bill Townsend
G-Cat 5.0
Sarasota
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waiex191

Rank: Mate

Registered: Oct 07, 2020

Last visit: Feb 29, 2024

Posts: 359
Posted: Nov 28, 2021 - 10:23 AM

shortyfoxMonohulls can always point higher, ever notice how when your windward hull starts to leave the water you can point higher?

I've never done that, but thanks for pointing it out in advance.
The only thing I've noticed about the monohulls on the lake is they seem to be under impulse power while we achieve warp factor 1.

--
Bryan in Poplar Grove, IL
Supercat 17, unknown year. Future project
Hobie 16, 1977 - died a spectacular death https://youtu.be/Y7O22bp2MVA
Hobie 16, 1978 - current boat
--
rattlenhum

Rank: Mate

Registered: Aug 01, 2002

Last visit: Sep 14, 2024

Posts: 425
Posted: Nov 30, 2021 - 08:13 AM

waiex191So we tried them out yesterday. We were not even on a reach, we were just tacking upwind. The wind and boat were pretty stable, and the bow dipped.
https://youtu.be/WQXUIY0gJz8

I'm a believer.

Sorry, but that vid isn't convincing at all. Going upwind there is more pressure on the stern and little tendency to pitch regardless of those foils. The bows will easily pearl though smaller waves like that going upwind...not necessarily so when sailing off the wind with more pressure on the bows. If you pitch while truly going upwind, you're really doing something wrong.

In general, you do want weight forward, primarily to get the transoms out of the water to reduce drag. However, if you start pearling/punching too much in heavier air/bigger waves, you need to get your weight back further. Otherwise, it slows you down and can throw you off balance on the trap.

A heavy boat/crew and old/blown sails make it difficult to sail very high, so one tends to foot more toward a close reach. Doing that in heavier air with heavy/boat crew depressing the leeward hull and those blown sails all powered up opens the gateway to the pitchpole zone.

Similarly, if you can't flatten your sails enough or get all that weight back far enough when sailing off the wind in heavier air/bigger waves, you are launched into the pitchpole zone. I expect then those shoehorn foils will provide a substantial fulcrum. That said, you really haven't pitched until you pitch hard in shallow water and come out of it with a shovel full of mud on each bow tip.

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Jerome Vaughan
Hobie 16
Clinton, Mississippi
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dirtybanana

Rank: Lubber

Registered: Nov 27, 2021

Last visit: Jan 10, 2024

Posts: 24
Posted: Nov 30, 2021 - 09:27 AM

Jerome- what you have posted makes sense. I would think they would be standard equipment if they did more good than harm. I haven't had my boat in the pitchpole zone yet but your tips above about how weight distribution and hull submersion affect the boat dynamics seem to bear out.

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Tim Gibson
1982 Hobie 16 Carumba Sails
1980 Hobie 14 Cat Fever Sails (SOLD)
Memphis, TN
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shortyfox

Rank: Mate

Registered: Apr 07, 2017

Last visit: Nov 21, 2024

Posts: 367
Posted: Nov 30, 2021 - 03:23 PM

QuoteI would think they would be standard equipment if they did more good than harm.

Don't know for sure, but I suspect they are not class legal. In some racing situations they may be an advantage.

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Bill Townsend
G-Cat 5.0
Sarasota
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