Where is the bests place to attach a winch to pull a catamaran?
I was using dolphin striker rod. Is this strong enough? It is used to right the boat all the wind power propels the boat from this rod, but I don't want to bend it at all or change the tension of the v bar. I just replaced it today because it was slightly bent by the pin when lowering the mast too far before removing pin.
The main beam is difficult to pull from because the trampoline get in the way. I need 2 attachment points o pull it straight onto a trailer or up a steep beach.
pulling boat using winch
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Posted: Oct 24, 2021 - 01:14 PM
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Posted: Oct 24, 2021 - 02:19 PM
Trailer it backwards and you can use a bridle on the rear beam.
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Posted: Oct 24, 2021 - 03:39 PM
Why not attach the winch to your launching trolly?
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Posted: Oct 24, 2021 - 05:41 PM
Do NOT do that.
Yes, & no. The rod serves two purposes. From an engineering standpoint, (load analysis), it serves mainly to prevent the main beam from breaking. In combination with the V brace, it makes a truss, which is much stronger than the beam itself.
The short section with the ball serves to keep the mast off the beam, & yes, it does transmit SOME of wind forces, but most of the wind force is borne by the shrouds/stay.
Winching up steep beach via the DS is just dumb. Your ad states “Beach Wheels”, use them. Get them
under the hulls, (about the shroud anchor points is neutral balance), then attach winch to the wheels axles, near the wheels.
If you have to move that cat, remove the rudders & the mast 1st. That reduces the weight substantially, & face it, for whatever reason you are moving it, those parts have to come off anyway.
Edited by Edchris177 on Oct 24, 2021 - 05:51 PM.
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Posted: Oct 24, 2021 - 06:13 PM
I never remove the rudders. That is too much extra work. They pop up and are not a problem. They would also have to be removed together due to the pivmatic system. The mast is let down when I get the boat on the trailer. It is too difficult to move the boat with the mast down and I don't want to make and extra trip to get the mast. I leave all the rigging attached except forestay. When putting the boat on to the trailer do you just recommend pushing it on.(this can be done but if it is steep it is much easier to winch the boat onto the trailer) I had been getting the bow on to the trailer rollers, backing up the car a little to raise off the beach wheels, then removing the cat trax and winching boat onto trailer while mast is still up. Is the the front beam a safe place to attach a rope to pull the boat up? -
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Posted: Oct 24, 2021 - 06:48 PM
As a newer sailor, I’ll respectfully tell you that’s an incredibly bad idea. If a rudder drops while trailering and you damage or snap it, you’ll be trying to replace an expensive part. Take the whole assembly off.
Here’s your end of day sequence:
1. Drop main.
2. Get beach wheels under boat.
3. Roll oat up to trailer.
4. Winch boat on trailer.
5. Tie down boat.
6. Lower mast.
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Posted: Oct 24, 2021 - 07:07 PM
those are the steps i use but i never would take the rudders off
that crazy to me. i would take off if taking a long trip. i do tie them up before driving.
they cant hit the ground even if bungee failed. -
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Posted: Oct 24, 2021 - 07:14 PM
i also drop the jib. the roller furling is not as cool for the trailering people. -
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Posted: Oct 24, 2021 - 07:33 PM
We're suffering some subject drift here, but wrt the rudders, taking them off for trailering is nothing but a waste of time.
I've put countless thousands of highway miles on cats, and the right answer is to secure them so they can't drop on the road, period.
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Posted: Oct 24, 2021 - 08:49 PM
I agree with Jonathan. I have trailered my 5.7 nearly coast to coast with the rudders attached, but secured.
To avoid a very expensive repair, never pull your boat by the dolphin rod. It has no strength in the fore/aft direction, and is there to support the front beam and mast in conjunction with the brace. So it is strong vertically, but can be bent in the forward direction too easily. You can secure a line under the mast ball and the top of the DS against the beam and will have minimal risk damage.
Beach wheels are your friend. I spent many years hauling my cat up on a beach without them, and had to re-glass the skeg. They make everything easier, including loading to the trailer.
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Posted: Oct 25, 2021 - 12:25 AM
I do not agree that is has no strength in the fore aft direction. otherwise a windy day would be dangerous.
but pulling it from a certain positions could damage it. I am not sure.
It would be interesting experiment to lift the entire boat from various places on the dolphin striker rod after all the nacra 5.7 weighs 360 pounds should be able to easily support that load. if not the rod should be thicker in my opinion and is an easily correctable engineering mistake.
If one hang weights from rods, which is common, how much weight is actually required to bend the rod from the center point. It is an interesting question. and can be proved experimentally and most likely well known by any metal manufacturing company. -
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Posted: Oct 25, 2021 - 12:32 AM
clearly the mast lever can bend it if the pin is not removed -
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Posted: Oct 25, 2021 - 01:42 AM
This is an extremely dumb argument. Edchris177 is 100% correct in describing this as a truss. Anyone who's ever taken a first year statics course understands that trusses are defined and designed in two dimensions, and pulling on it in the third dimension (in this case, fore/aft) is an attempt to rely on a material strength that that element is not characterized for. On any day, windy or otherwise, that element is in compression - end of story. Subject it to a bending moment and you're on your own. It's of the diameter and strength that it needs to be, otherwise you'd hear thousands of stories about them collapsing (folding) in normal use. Fatten it up all you want, and all you'll be doing is engaging in a poorly-considered hack of the sort that just leads to something else failing when you yank on it.
You're getting considered and experienced opinions here. If you're just going to blow them off, perhaps it's better not to ask the question, because that's kind of insulting.
Edited by jonathan162 on Oct 25, 2021 - 04:22 AM.
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H18 & Zygal (classic) Tornado - stolen and destroyed - very unpleasant story.
Invitation and Mistral and Sunflower and windsurfers w/ Harken hydrofoils and god knows what else...
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Posted: Oct 25, 2021 - 03:22 AM
No,they do not. The pivmatic has NOTHING to do with tieing both rudders.
That piece of tubing, known as tiller cross tie separates them.
I’m not against trailering with rudders, if properly secured. My advice was given because you appeared to be having issues getting a 400lb load up an incline. In such a case, the lowest hanging fruit is to reduce the mass.
The easiest way to drop a mast is on an incline, not on a trailer. I’ve watched MN3s friend, (older than I), drop his Nacra mast solo on their inclined beach.
This is my last post regarding this particular Cat. Respectfully, I give up. I’ve sent you almost free parts, & spent far too much time referring you repeatedly to the Nacra manual, along with other sources on this site. Some people follow advice, some don’t.
Good luck with your project.
Edited by Edchris177 on Oct 25, 2021 - 03:27 AM.
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Posted: Oct 25, 2021 - 05:32 AM
[quote=Edchris177]
Edchris, I salute you to your decision.
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Posted: Oct 25, 2021 - 06:36 AM
Make sure to secure not just the rudders up but also the crossbar centered. It is not uncommon to touch branches, not so likely on the road at speed but before, or when you get home. If you didn’t secure it tight it will be easily pushed completely out to one side and break. And you may even hit others with the crossbar or the rudders. Yes, if you secure things properly there should be no risk. The risk is that one day you may forget.
About rod strength, as said, it stands high loads on its own axis and way less on its perpendicular axis. It’s not meant to be forced horizontally, especially from the lower end. Try hard enough and you will be able to bend it with your hands. You may tie a short loop of rope passing in front of the beam and behind the rod above and below the beam. That would keep the forces close to the beam where the rod strength is not compromised. Where do you attach the righting line? I personally don’t like to attach it to the rod, unless it’s secured close the beam, for the same reasons explained. Next time you take your trampoline out, add a grommet just behind the center of the front beam. The other thing you can do is tying two loops around the beam at each end, just inside the hulls, adding an eye strap underneath the beam to limit side movement. Then add a bridle from which you can attach the winch. You may also attach a tow line there. -
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Posted: Oct 25, 2021 - 08:20 AM
you are correct - it has "some" (fore/aft) strength - but your conclusion is wrong
it is designed to manage loads from above
it is meant to stop your mast from ripping through you beam when it has lots of force on it ( sheeted and has wind on it)
it is NOT meant as a method to pull or push your boat horizontally - and if you do, you are adding a lot of force in a critical part that was not meant to have force on it - ymmv
Rudders - every pothole you hit will add wear to your rudders / especially your fittings and bolts and through holes
you can bend rudder through-bolts and cause worming out and adding slop to your rudders - it is up to you if the time savings is worth that risk/ damage (and your specific gear)
IF you travel with them on ... in the up position you risk the rudder causing damage by popping out of the locked up position and slamming down - it is up to you if it is worth the risk and the time savings is worth it. different boats have different systems to keep the rudders up. some a reliable some are not - ymmv
If you drive a few miles on smooth roads - probably not a big deal, if you drive far down crappy roads (and care) ... it's probably worth the time to take em off.
If you look at most modern boats / racers, they take off all the parts, and put them in rudder bag, boom bags, sail bags, etc. It is all an effort to protect expensive gear and make it last
Edited by MN3 on Oct 25, 2021 - 12:27 PM. -
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Posted: Oct 25, 2021 - 08:21 AM
That tow line will work when setup like that, with a bridle, it wont if you tie it to the center of the front beam, the cat will not follow the line. Same for anchoring, if you attach the line at the center of the front beam the boat will be constantly "sailing" around the anchor -
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Posted: Oct 25, 2021 - 08:36 AM
That's your best option as long as the load isn't extreme. If by yourself, bracing your feet against the axel of the trailer and you're able to move the boat up on the trailer part way I would say the load isn't too great so winch away. Adding a grommet aft of the beam would certainly work well as long as the grommet is large and has a lot of reinforcement around it. It won't be cheap. Securing the rudders so they won't fall down should not be an issue. The reason for removing them is they stick out and are vulnerable to damage from other vehicles and backing up. With all the boats I've had over the years I have sustained way more damage trailering than sailing. I trailer with the rudders on but that is only because I trailer backwards and I figure they are way less vulnerable that way.
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Bill Townsend
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Posted: Oct 25, 2021 - 03:29 PM
Wow.
You guys that trailer long distance with your rudders on really like sloppy steering. I never trailer with the rudders on. Not to Mexico, Coeur D' Alene Idaho, or all parts California and Arizona.
I align my rudders with a 2 mm toe in. I bet the slop in your steering, from the tiller handle to the blade, is five times that.
Trailering with the weight of the rudders on creates wear in the rudder pivots, the gudgeon mounts, the steering linkage, and enhances the gap between the castings and the rudder blade.
You'll note that NO catamaran ever came with a factory device that holds up the rudders while you trailer any considerable distance.
Edchris177, MN3, I think we're done here.
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