pulling boat using winch
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Posted: Oct 25, 2021 - 03:50 PM
My rudders and tiller mechanisms are tight and with a similar toe-in. There's only wear where there's movement, and for there to be movement there has to be slop to start with. You're drawing a generalization that isn't necessarily valid.
I'm going to add a long-overdue "shout out" to Bill Frye and his Tiller Linkage Connectors (KISME's TLCs). I got a set from him when I put H18 rudders on my Mystere (don't get me started on the garbage that came with the boat), and to this day they're as tight as the day I bought 'em - even with thousands of highway miles added. They were a beautiful piece of work; when Bill retired he sold everything to Murrays, and when they disappeared from Murrays' catalog I was pissed to learn that they hadn't just discontinued them - they'd scrapped the tooling as well. Damn shame.
That's a completely spurious argument. As a rule catamarans don't come from the factory with trailers, so by your logic they aren't meant to be towed anywhere.
Edited by jonathan162 on Oct 25, 2021 - 04:14 PM.
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Southern Alberta and all over the damn place.
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1981 SuperCat 20 "Roberts' Rockets"
1983 SuperCat 19
TriFoiler #23 "Unfair Advantage"
Mystere 17
Unicorn A-Class (probably made by Trowbridge) that I couldn't resist rescuing at auction.
H18 & Zygal (classic) Tornado - stolen and destroyed - very unpleasant story.
Invitation and Mistral and Sunflower and windsurfers w/ Harken hydrofoils and god knows what else...
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Posted: Oct 25, 2021 - 05:19 PM
agreed, mystere's system has lots of flaws. that is why i have a dozen spares of each part :)
I have seen nacra rudders on a mystere 6.0 do very welll - never saw h18's on a mystere -
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Posted: Oct 25, 2021 - 05:59 PM
"Flaws"? You call a rudder that: a) Doesn't lock down; b) Doesn't lock up; and c) Doesn't kick up a "system [with] lots of flaws"?
I call it "inexcusable crap that, when it's not floating up just for fun is looking for something to hit so that it can explode, assuming you don't replace it with a REAL rudder system first".
Of course, I'm speaking only of the original Mystere 17's - I have no idea what they put on the 6.0 .
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Southern Alberta and all over the damn place.
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1981 SuperCat 20 "Roberts' Rockets"
1983 SuperCat 19
TriFoiler #23 "Unfair Advantage"
Mystere 17
Unicorn A-Class (probably made by Trowbridge) that I couldn't resist rescuing at auction.
H18 & Zygal (classic) Tornado - stolen and destroyed - very unpleasant story.
Invitation and Mistral and Sunflower and windsurfers w/ Harken hydrofoils and god knows what else...
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Posted: Oct 25, 2021 - 11:54 PM
You sir are quite obviously not an engineer and your claim of an engineering mistake is specious at best. The issue here isn’t just the size and strength of the rod, it’s how it connects to the lower v-bar and runs through the front beam. If your winch line slides down to the bottom of the striker rod you’ve got a lovely moment arm multiplying your winching force. If your rod was oversized that force has to go somewhere and it’s just going to get transferred into trying to deform/stretch the front beam holes. The range here is from direct shear load (assume d from winch line to front beam = 0) all the way to a pretty decent bending moment that is going to act on the striker rod right where the bottom thread is cut (weakest point).
Simply put you’re making an issue and saying it’s a poor design when you’re trying to do something never intended by the manufacturer and obviously a bad choice by any observer for a variety of reasons (as evidenced by the other comments here).
Edited by carbonc on Oct 25, 2021 - 11:58 PM. -
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Posted: Oct 26, 2021 - 08:32 AM
i don't have any of these issues with any of my rudders/casting
mine lock down and stay down unless i am in 30knots and hit grass (been there, don't want to again)
mine don't "lock up' but they do stay up (unless a butterfly lands on them)
mine certainly do kick up when they contact anything more than a guppy
BUT they do die a young life (almost always the crap pot metal fails) and so far Mystere has. been good to work with for spares. I ordered a complete upper and lower casting from them a few years ago and one of the uppers had some casting flaws - they sent me a new one without question -
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Posted: Oct 26, 2021 - 08:38 AM
I can't imagine there is no way to tie a line around the main beam at each forward corner of the tramp. What kind of boat? A bridle tied at those two points would make this discussion of using the dolphin striker rod moot. All of this should not be complicated. As far as the rudders go, if you want to leave them on, tie them where they can't fall down but take them off for long trips. Sorry for sounding so pragmatic, but too much is being made of this.
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Bill Townsend
G-Cat 5.0
Sarasota
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Posted: Oct 26, 2021 - 10:10 AM
Then we're talking about two different things. The original 17's had no "mechanism" of any sort - just small ledges on the castings that rested against each other in either the up or down position, held in place by a subtle combination of gravity and prayer. I'd be interested in seeing a picture of yours. By funny coincidence, this summer I quite accidentally met a chap at the lake who has a 17 with a sail number just a few away from mine, and I've been helping him sort the boat out. Amazingly, he still has the original rudders, and though they've been endlessly patched and hacked over the years, they still (don't) function as original - apparently in four decades nobody who owned the boat knew enough to have had enough of them. I'll try to get him to shoot me a couple of pics and post them here.
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Southern Alberta and all over the damn place.
*
1981 SuperCat 20 "Roberts' Rockets"
1983 SuperCat 19
TriFoiler #23 "Unfair Advantage"
Mystere 17
Unicorn A-Class (probably made by Trowbridge) that I couldn't resist rescuing at auction.
H18 & Zygal (classic) Tornado - stolen and destroyed - very unpleasant story.
Invitation and Mistral and Sunflower and windsurfers w/ Harken hydrofoils and god knows what else...
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Posted: Oct 26, 2021 - 11:32 AM
still the same, just a notch on the lower and notch on the upper - that eventually rounds off - as i said they don't lock up but until they are worn round and can no longer be filed anymore (they usually break prior to this point), they stay up. - even on anchor, even with boat and wave traffic -
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Posted: Oct 26, 2021 - 11:54 AM
(We really need to take this to a new thread...)
Unbelievable to me that after all these years Sansoucy wouldn't have come up with an actual grown-up rudder mechanism.
I sail a lot of reservoirs, which means fluctuating, unpredictable levels. The local (in-city) reservoir where I learned to sail and for many years kept the Mystere mast-up is just one of them (though it's recently been rehabilitated - it's been steadily silting up over the last half century to the point that much of its area was unsailable, but thanks to the big 2013 flood they modified the dam to raise the level a meter or two, and it's like a brand new lake). The first, maybe the second year I had the boat (can't remember for sure, but could probably find documentation) I quite unexpectedly hit bottom at speed and the tops of both rudders blew off. They were nice enough to send me a new pair gratis, but I sailed the boat extremely carefully until I made a holiday trip to LA and had the Hobie rudders installed while I was down there. I can't imagine putting up with those non-mechanisms except in an emergency situation.
The non-kick-up rudders are even more incomprehensible when you look at the pivoting boards.
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Southern Alberta and all over the damn place.
*
1981 SuperCat 20 "Roberts' Rockets"
1983 SuperCat 19
TriFoiler #23 "Unfair Advantage"
Mystere 17
Unicorn A-Class (probably made by Trowbridge) that I couldn't resist rescuing at auction.
H18 & Zygal (classic) Tornado - stolen and destroyed - very unpleasant story.
Invitation and Mistral and Sunflower and windsurfers w/ Harken hydrofoils and god knows what else...
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Posted: Oct 26, 2021 - 04:02 PM
I have a block and tackle I use to pull the boat up on the trailer, since I mostly singlehand. I have a line with a snapshackle that I wrap around the mast step, down, around the dolphin striker, up, and back around the mast step. I could go just around the mast step, but I want to keep the load as low as possible. When we tow boats (keelboats and catamarans), we always go around the mast or mast step.
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Scott
Prindle Fleet 2
TCDYC
Prindle 18-2 Mod "FrankenKitty"
Tornado Classic "Fast Furniture"
Prindle 19 "Mr. Wiggly"
Nacra 5.8 "De ja vu"
Nacra 5.0
Nacra 5.8
Tornadoes (Reg White)
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Posted: Oct 26, 2021 - 04:14 PM
To get back to the original question.... On my Nacra, I would make a bridle with each tail tied around the front beam at the hull. I had a spin pole which would help center the boat, but I think you could get a large diameter ring (4-5") to go around the block and tackle pulling the boat. Have the ring centered by a line on each side going to the forestay attachment tangs. This will keep the nose following the pull of the line.
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Scott
Prindle Fleet 2
TCDYC
Prindle 18-2 Mod "FrankenKitty"
Tornado Classic "Fast Furniture"
Prindle 19 "Mr. Wiggly"
Nacra 5.8 "De ja vu"
Nacra 5.0
Nacra 5.8
Tornadoes (Reg White)
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Posted: Oct 27, 2021 - 08:29 AM
I always just pull/push my boat by hand onto the trailer, and that's what I recommend as Plan A. (Staying out of the mast/rudder removal fray.) Pulling seems easier, so I do that as far as I can first, but I'm short. (I installed some non-skip tape where I stand on the trailer frame to keep from slipping.) Once I've pulled it as far as I can, it's close to the balance point, so lifting the rear and pushing isn't so bad.
I know some who winch, but I cringe when I see that done with the boat at a steep angle point-loading the hull where it meets the roller. In any case, don't winch from the DS rod as others have said. Attaching to the main beam/frame should be okay, but I don't know the particulars to attach on your boat. If the boat were at only a slight angle to the trailer, I think winching would be okay. Before putting bows on rollers, maybe move cattrax aft as far as possible to reduce the angle?
Just an observation...the higher the rollers are off the ground, the more difficult the loading. Some trailers have the crossbeams below the frame and others above. Some have larger diameter wheels/tires than others. Even the angle at which the trailer is attached to the vehicle may come into play. The point being that every situation is different and so may be the best solution to the problem.
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Jerome Vaughan
Hobie 16
Clinton, Mississippi
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Posted: Oct 27, 2021 - 12:36 PM
Another option is to release the trailer from the car and manually position the rollers or cradles under the hulls close to the beachwheels. Then you can move the beachwheels aft (after locking the trailer wheels) and then winch the boat into the trailer, at a more natural angle. Not so natural is the position of the winch handle but it works for me. Though more often I keep the trailer on the car and as Jerome says I pull and push the boat part way before using the winch. -
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Posted: Oct 27, 2021 - 08:11 PM
thanks for all the ideas. i had done all these and the bridle on the cat trax works very well for me. the bridle on front beam to pull up on trailer also works well to pull the boat onto trailer it is kind of heavy althogh i had pushed it up a few times. i have to say that taking rudders off solo is close to impossible with 5.7 while on the beach. it is hard to balance the boat and remove the pins. i know you can remove each rudder if you remove the tie bar sorry to say that the pivmatic system prevents this. edchis i listen to every piece of advise and link you have ever posted. i am not an enginner and apologize if a little slow. thanks again for all your help! -
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Posted: Oct 28, 2021 - 04:21 AM
Hey Rungi,
The pivmatic does NOT prevent the tie bar from being removed. Probably you have have done yet another mistake when rigging the rudder system.
Edited by revintage on Oct 28, 2021 - 09:04 AM.
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Brgds
Lars
Frankentri 5.8/5.5/Inter20
Aerow trimaran foiler
https://www.facebook.com/groups/1192604934176635
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Posted: Oct 28, 2021 - 07:13 AM
Why on the beach? You can remove it with the boat on the trailer or on the beachwheels.
One little stupid detail that I took too long to figure out is that you don't need to start inserting the pin from the lower gudgeon with the casting already in position, if you do that with the boat on the ground, you need to raise the sterns to make room to insert the pin and it gets tricky to hold the casting at the same time. It's better to first raise the hull and insert the pin on the lower gudgeon, without the casting, and then lower the hull and put the casting, lower hole first, slide it down and then the upper part.
I converted to the newer system and it's a different story, you really forget about the topic, except for removing the cross bar, unless you don't (I do).
https://www.murrays.com/p…dgeon-upper-countersunk/
https://www.murrays.com/p…dgeon-lower-countersunk/
https://www.murrays.com/product/56-1002/ -
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Posted: Oct 28, 2021 - 08:28 AM
IF you prefer to do this while on the ground, you can adjust your beachwheels a bit stern of CE and the boat will stay put with it's transoms in the air- you can fiddle with your rudders or whatever and re-adjust your wheels back to Center for easy movement
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